The two edges of being underestimated.

I’m freakishly strong for my size. It’s a medical curiosity. I’m often the strongest guy at the gym, at least in the exercises that I enjoy to specialize in.

A few days ago there was a freakishly huge guy at the gym, and I was in an unusually engaging mood. He was “fresh meat” at the gym, and had never seen some of the more eye catching sets that I do. So I asked him if he’d be willing to do some contests.

Yay! He was game.

His arms were almost as big as my legs, and my keen eye noticed the low body fat and the rare but important tells of strength; the vast network of bulges of veins.

He said that he enjoys contests, as long as he wins. I said that I can only enjoy a contest if there is the real possibility to lose.

I let him pick his weapons for the duel. I could not repeat the weight he used for his standard routine of pull downs. Next we went to the butterfly on the wires – a favorite of mine. He fully extends his arms, and did 10 sets of an unusually high weight for full extention. Never once bent his elbows for leverage. I did repeat at his weight, but conceded to him that my extention was not quite as good as his. He said “that’s not even the same thing!”

Then he seemed to get annoyed. He said “You are going to get hurt. Don’t do that!”

I’ve heard that so many times over the years. Big guys think they are experts at everyone elses body. Most don’t realize that human’s vary quite a great deal in both how we respond to excersise, as well as types of muscle and how much of the muscle fiber we use. For instance some people, during strength training, will grow in strength at roughly the same rate as others, for the first 6 weeks or so, but their muscle mass won’t grow at all – and can even shrink. Others will grow only under specific training regimens – more or less reps, more or less weight. There is not only not any one size fits all regimen, but there is no one size fits all strength to weight ratio.

So any way, sometimes big guys get annoyed when they see me lifting and pulling big numbers, and try to “help” me do it right.

It’s arrogant and annoying, and my theory of mind of why they try to “help” is not charitable. I think they are subconciously trying to regain the status they think they earned by being big.

He got so annoyed at my pulling big numbers in the butterfly that he moved the pin to less than half the weight and told me sternly and in no uncertain terms that THAT was the weight I should be training with.

Convivially I said “Oh, really?” Then I grabbed the wires, as he turned to show me the raised hackles on his back. I had to call out twice to get his attention, as he was being very deliberate in NOT seeing how well I fared at his “suggested” weight. I was whipping the weights around like small plastic childrens toys, breathing rate not raised at all, and could have gone on for twenty or more minutes. “Oh no, I think I’m hurting myself!”

Then I strolled over to the dumbells, and grabbed first a set of 18s. I grabbed his eyes across the room with mine, pointed at the number, then him, and mimed for him to also try. Then did an easy set of 10 reps of curl then press above your head, one barbell in each hand.

Then I did the same with a set of 20s. One guy starting video recording. I think I did 20 reps. Not even breathing hard. Heartrate was fine. Some big guys came over to ask me about how I was so strong, and I said:

“I wish I could be big like you. You know, some guys get big, and others just get strong. I never get big. It’s just a different type of muscle, somehow.”

The huge guy was silent. I walked over and challenged him to try the barbells. All he said was “No way man. You’re stronger than me.”

It’s a bit annoying that I’ll never look as strong as I am. Sun Tzu thinks it can be an advantage to be underestimated. I’m not sure. Maybe bluff is equally valuable.

Sometimes I wish I was big with muscles and a body type that works just for show. I’ve seen guys with greyhound shaped rib cages that don’t need any meat on them to get that perfect triangular torso. Guys with high fat content muscles that naturally fill out a shirt. I have to work really fucking hard just to get my torso into a decent triangle, and my flared ribs with sunken chest mean I have to heavily overconpensate. At my fittest, I always look better with my shirt off than on, as the lean-ness of the muscles with their striations rippling in movement is unexpected and not obvious.

After the guys who were video recording my set and cheering me on and counting each rep came over, I punctuated the conversation by strongly punching the rubber foam padded wall collumn. Once with each hand. Hard enough that would sprain most people’s wrists, bruise and possibly fracture bones. Bones also respond to resistance training, which is why some martial artists punch wooden boards.

Nobody would ever know or suspect that I don’t need gloves or taped wrists to work a boxing bag, and am working towards being able to throw a series of hard punches against a bony body part without hurting my hands.

I’ve considered before playing like a billiards pool shark – carefully ensnaring unsuspecting big guys into placing bets. But most guys I meet at the gym won’t do any contest with me.

That guy was fucking huge. A real genetic freak of nature lottery winner huge.

I’m a freak of nature small.

It’s double edged and maybe there is no lesson to be learned – it’s just the choiceless way it is. No matter how fit I look, looks won’t reveal the potential.

Reminds me of a comment that I made decades ago to a friend, that only earned me an incredulous raised eyebrow at my self-overestimation and arrogance. I told him that it was VERY hard for me to get a pretty girl into bed, but after we fuck, it was always easy to keep them.

Some potentials are not easily displayed, or seen in others.


How being a good listener and questioner is a life changing super power

Alchemist said:

People who actually use advise are rare and difficult to make a living from.

Yes, and what’s worse is that people’s egos are usually very prickly.

You say:

I am generally happy to give someone else all the credit for being top dog as long as I can walk away with whatever stuff of value I was looking to gain from an operation.

That’s something that I’m working on. I’m not a great listener. Sometimes I have to notice that and force myself to pay more attention to pick out the wheat from the chaffe. To read comments twice. To not focus only on what I disagree with. To try to put myself into the other person’s shoes and figure out the insights from that perspective.

I noticed how bad I was at that, in part from seeing how good Nash is at it. And many other commenters here also.

But most people I think have a very difficult time with new perspectives.

Which usually makes talking about something where we are VERY emotionally invested, such as how to fuck, nearly impossible.

Theredquest says that he rarely gets positive feedback or interest when he talks about the benefits of a low sugar diet and using a bycicle for commuting as part of a fitness regimen.

Because people get prickly about their self esteem. So you can’t give advice.

And even on a blog where people go to to learn, giving advice will almost never work.

So many times, after people see me do chi-kung or meditate, they tell me “oh, I should start doing that”.

Ya. Right.

It’s like saying “Oh, I should also start a small side business”.

Like you say, it’s all talk. Nearly nobody ever actually does it.

And for talking about tantric types of sex, people actively avoid even imagining what the benefits could possibly be. Not only are most people too lazy to learn it, they are anti-lazy in even imagining what the benefits could be.

Luckily there is already a very small audience of people who have similar interests and lifestyles, and so that tiny audience of peers helps to keep me from giving up.

But as for actually influencing people?

All I can do is plant seeds, and hope for VERY long term minor social changes.

Or hope that a very few sensitive and talented men will take a small hint and run with it. That actually does happen.

Renfrew said:

Yesterday I listened to a very recent (Jan 2019) convo between Tom Torero, Troy Francis, and the now married Paul Janka.

I noticed that Torero and Francis (active players) never asked Janka (legendary retired player) any questions like “What are the wonderful things about married life?” or “Tell us about your wife” or “Do you think there’s a value in commitment to another person that you don’t get in short-term interactions?”

At times I had the sense they were less interested in Janka’s true experience of the decision to live monogamously (and the consequences thereof), and more interested in voicing (and reinforcing) their faith in their own respective mating strategies.

At any rate, because of where their heads were, I felt they missed the chance to have a real deep and revealing conversation about relationship styles, favouring instead a rather superficial and conventional discussion of “monogamy versus player.”

I don’t think any of the three men learned anything in the conversation, or were changed or influenced at all by each other. They enjoyed themselves, but there wasn’t any authentic intersubjectivity.

The marriage convo is here:

Which led me to watch this very long video of Janka, filmed when he was just at the start of the relationship with the girl he went on to marry:

I had not listened to Janka in years, and I’d completely forgotten how verbally intelligent that man is.

Great comment, and I like that Paul Janka video; I really vibe with his style.

I wish I could teach 1/5th as well as he can.

His story of playing with a girls pussy within a few minutes of meeting her, with her friends friend sitting beside her and not knowing was familiar. Because I did that too. Later that night the girl came home with me, despite the violent protestations of her cock blocking lesbian best friend. Then the 21 year old micro-mini hottie moved in on the first date and we lived together for 1 year. Must be fourteen years ago now. Long enough that I remember her, but don’t reminisce about her.

I wonder how long it took Paul Janka to be able to TEACH like that. It’s one thing to do a thing well, but teaching how to do a thing well is a very different skill set.

Some thoughts about Nick Krauser

That being said, most of Nick’s trollery actually serves to make important distinctions.
->Shoring IS distinct Sugar Daddying or being a John. Not because of morals, but because a man’s self respect is important, even if it flimsy to the point of delusion.
->’Dating’ in the west is mostly shoring anyway, but that doesn’t change ^
->Convincing an Eastern European model to bear you children and stick around and be nice to them, raise them, and be nice, respectful to you IS distinct from either of the above, and requires a similar leap in ability and character from a man.

Yes, good distinctions. But I think Nick still displays a glaring blind spot. In this guest post by Jimmy the subject is of settling down after a career of daygaming. I commented:

The options for relationships are MUCH vaster than is generally discussed. The possibilities are MUCH bigger than is usually even hinted at.

I assume because it’s an overlapping, but still distinct and separate skill set. You can’t just transition out of day game into relationship game, as if it’s all the same thing.

Krauser appears to have bought into and built upon this very weird idea of alpha only fucks and only betas provide for a live in mate. His crew dress alike in costumes that highlight the bad-boy archetype, and we never hear him talk about him having any long term relationships with any of his conquests.

So he’s deliberately created this reality that deliberately excludes developing or even valuing long term relationship skills.

So it will be invisble to him the very concept of giving and receiving love, and MAINTAINING strong passionate long term love affairs.

So the skill sets required to have a live in and raise kids are completely outside of his radar.

Which directly relates to your comment:

The skills needed for shoring, for pickup, and for raising the next generation of men to be more than damaged goods, these skills are learned skills.

Pickup skills can be learned, and somewhat taught.

LTR skills are what my blog is mostly about. I write about them because I believe that they can also be somewhat taught.

They are overlapping but distinct. LTR skills include developing your self in ways that are not important for pick up.

Deliberate blind spot.

And they only pay attention to you after they see the way other people behave toward you. In theory cold approach can short cut past social proof and wealth and AMOGing and all the rest, but in reality all of the guys, myself included, [B]appear [/B]to only be able to approach girls with real success AFTER we earn the respect of our peers in some way.

People do fight for serotonin. But sometimes that fight can get not only a bit ugly, but a bit pathological. Not only not win/win, but more towards lose/lose.

An anti-Krauser website has a few people saying that Krauser can be prickly in person with other guys, and AMOG his own wings, or just generally bring down his friends state with arrogance. *(Update – see Krauser’s comment about that website.) Someone did contact me before with a 1st hand story that jibes with that, of Krauser seeming to value his pick up skills so much that he gives off the vibe of dick measuring about it in what would otherwise be pleasant company.

We all rationalize our choices of what is the best mating strategy based on exactly what we are doing. Krauser does it, and I do it. But I think in the back of Krauser’s mind, he realizes that his mating strategy is bodering on pathological and doesn’t really measure up against mating strategies where people actually love and take care of each other, and want to see each other again. So I think he projects out his insecurities, with an offensive psychological defence.

I’d love to make this comment a post, because I believe that Krausers overall attitude towards women could lead spergy men towards only developing a spergy approach to women; never learning to open their hearts and lean into their artistic sides. I’m of two minds – with one mind not wanting to be too dickish. I suppose I could re-write it in the abstract, but where is the fun in that?

Although Nick disparages guys who talk about women for not being as good or interested in daygame style pick up, he also said in 2012 that daygame tends to fuck up your life and turn you into an narcissist who can only attract fucked up people.

More recently Nick has been thinking about converting to Christianity, and said:

If I do make a conversion to Christianity, I’ll be withdrawing my key pick-up products from the market, so if you want *******, 2019 is the time to buy them.

So he clearly is of two minds of the value of the lifestyle that he’s devoted so many years to, and of the value of that lifestyle to others.

Which makes it all the more weird that he is so arrogant about it. Not weird, actually. It’s just a common divided brain. Not integrated personality.

I keep talking over and over about unifying the mind through practices designed to do exactly that.

I think we can see a good argument here for why that’s fucking god damned important, exactly and especially regarding dealing with the women in our lives.

If you want girls to come back for more, you need a broad self improvement regimen that includes emotional and sexual and musical fluency.

I think the reader can put together the connections between these ideas. I may update with more thoughts later.

Quoting theredquest:

2. Most people want a “system” to follow. Religion used to provide this. Today, religion is mostly dead, and so guys find politics instead. Once a typical person buys into a political party or system, they stay with that system, even when it is bad, or has bad outcomes.

3. Keep in mind that TRP and seduction probably selects for guys who have been unsuccessful with or hurt by women. Probably guys with bad childhoods too. Guys who are getting what they want from dating, women, etc. are probably not spending a lot of time debating pickup tactics online.

Quoting Delacroix’s Desk:

While RP wisdom tells you to ignore emotions and that “feelings” are for girls. You have to realize, as an artist your ability to experience emotion and express it is one of your greatest strengths EVEN if it’s not inherently masculine.

Quoting BlueValenting:

Honestly, I always viewed Xsplat as a keyboard jockey totally disconnected from the reality of seducing women and the grind of game because he doesn’t approach much.

He’s always struck me as lost in a world of mental masturbation without much relevance to reality.

The only thing that gives him some “cred” is how long he’s been blogging about love and that esoteric nonsense, which is 2003. But as you can see in his first post ever, the dude was living in la la land for over 15 years now:

Quoting TheRealist

I’ve read your blog while ago and found some resemblance from RedPill perspective.
Give some refreshment by having the balls to diss Rollo CS.
Also at least, a good writer, I think(at that time).

After read that post I just realized you.. $%@!$@!%$@%!%%^&^!@

RIGHT BRAIN? Chi-Kung? internal energy.? chakras?

Are you TNL member?

Ok, I’ve written before how I think that the idea of being a leather jacket Alpha Fucks as OPPOSED to provider type of man is a crazy and stupid self limiting false dichotomy.

Here is a great example of why.

If you think that love and chakras and chi-kung are “unrealistic”, divorced from reality, and la-la land, then ask yourself what reality you are trying to create for yourself.

In my reality that I create, I fall in mutual love with young women that I’m very sexually attracted to, and they become extremely devoted and see me as often as I will allow them to.

In the reality that BlueValentine prefers, he focuses on meeting new girls.

What about retention?

What about retention?

What about retention?

Why not see the girl more than once?

Are you not interested? Or is it that you HAVE to keep approaching new girls, because the girls are not interested in seeing you again?

Chi-kung is EXTREMELY down to earth and practical.

It’s the technology that makes girls fall in love and come back to ride and suck on your cock.


Relevant, from this comment:

In researching the biomechenics of addiction for this comment, I came accross information about differences in how the left and right brain process information, and how each can sometimes work as distinct characters that we inhabit.

I think you’ll notice that most of what I advocate, in terms of relationship skills and seduction, is very right brain oriented. I’d like to do a long write up about it.

I’ve spent a great many years working diligently, without being aware of it, to be able to embody my right brain – since age 12 actually – first with self-hypnosis, then mind centered then body centered meditations, intellect to see the edges of intellect through studying Buddhist philosopy, lucid dreaming, post-meditative wide spacial awareness as habit, poetry writing, and later with musical improvisation (that I usually do using the left hand, which is controlled by the right brain).

Lately when talking about seduction I mention improv often, and mindfullness and awareness and music.

Apparently bonding and social relations are handled by the right brain.

It also thinks in terms of quality, instead of quantity. It would be an EXTREMELY left brain approach to go for notches, while not being interested in the quality of the relationship and sex.

The first video is an introduction video with animation, the second is a more in depth talk, and the third repeats information in the 2nd talk but goes into more depth. You can youtube Dr. Iain McGilchrist

In this third talk McGilchrist mentions that left brain music is only involved with beat, there is no harmony and melody.

I’ve often ridiculed hip-hop as lacking in harmony and melody. Amazing. I must assume that hip-hop is both adopted by and leads to left brain oriented people. Also I assume that modern society is heavily influenced by cocaine, meth, adderall and ritalin types of drugs, instead of the pot and lsd and heroin that influenced musicians in the ’60s and ’70s.

He also mentions that culture on the whole is becoming more left brained, and children are now needing to be taught how to recognize facial expressions – a right brained activity.

For me, not drifting into left brain seeming to be the driver of conciousness requires regular habit maintenance. The habits of meditation and chi-kung – especially when combined and practiced daily – have profound changes on how my mind works. Music and improvisation also seem to be making big changes. And I have to include now, only now just realizing it, the improv that happens when talking to my girlfriends – or fucking them. The sex of course can sometimes be a profound meditative bliss experience, or it can slip into something more banal and routine. But the verbal back and forth – I did not realize until now that this is also a type of poetry writing, or left-right integration that is heavily right brained.

Related: Thoughts about Krauser’s deliberately limited (and spergy) view towards women and relationship.

Why Qi-Gong is as important as the gym

A few thoughts about Chi-Kung/Qi-gong:

Chi-kung is a broad umbrella word that holds within it many different types of body centered meditations. It’s a thing the way “martial arts” are a thing.

I learned many styles, both moving and not moving. Not moving includes standing chi-kung, where you take a pose as if holding a tree, with your legs slightly bent, and also includes many sitting down types, such as the inner smile, or moving energy up your spine, over the top of your head, and back down the front into you lower belly area, then back around.

There are forms of chi-kung that look more like tai-chi, with some ritualized movements, however with chi-kung your focus is less on the dance like body movements, and more on internal energy.

To highlight the energy aspect, one type is where you hold your palms near each other, and feel a ball of energy there. From there you can wave your arms around in some different ritualized ways, and feel energy inside other parts of your body and even outside of your body – especially above your head and below your feet.

So with repeated practice, your mental map of your body image gets augmented, and you create phantom limbs, that are felt quite strongly, just as amputated limbs can be felt quite strongly. You learn to feel your chakras, and move energy around very consciously at any time; while watching a movie, or having a conversation, or while having sex.

This type of activity is a great example of the satisfactions that can only come from delayed gratification. While it is pleasurable, it’s also a discipline that is additive. Very similar to practicing a musical instrument, it requires maintenance and continued learning. If you don’t practice for even a few days, the sensations drop off. Regular daily practice will bring the sensations even into your sleep state.

Meditation is a great way to get out of the habit of being inside the left brained analytical ego-centric narrative. Just focus on anything other than your internal dialogue, and that’s meditation. Well, anything that isn’t also story-line based – so that rules out most entertainments. Focusing on the sound of a fan will expand you out of your narrative. Some people use the breath. I’m fond of the visual field as a relatively form-less meditation; just sit and be aware of the environment.

The advantage to chi-kung as a form of meditation includes of course expanding out from your narrative, which frees up a lot of attention to enable you to enjoy more of the present moment. But then it has other advantages that I respect so much that I very often mention it.

The most obvious and perhaps profound advantage is that it increases both sexual intensity plus sexual control. You can feel more energy in more of your body, and are even a great deal more sensitive to the cues and energies and emotions and vibes of your lover. You get much more embodied and present, but in a way that is not so much of just having feelings happen to you, in an out of control way, but also of participating in the feelings; you can move the energies around, in a great many ways; very much like playing music.

I don’t know what percentage of the population is able to strongly feel the kinesthetic sense and create and work with these phantom limbs. In the classes that I took, people naive to the idea very quickly felt chi between their hands and the practices made a lot of common body centered sense to them.

My life has been so incredibly enhanced by it, and it’s so integral to my life and personality and being, that of course I can’t imagine dealing with women as effectively without a very strong grounding in chi-kung. It’s very much a gigantic portion of how to communicate. How to connect. How to share love and space.

I have many interests in my life and am constantly studying about some newly discovered interest, be it about biology or science or music or history or whatever. But usually I limit the blog topics to be about increasing relationship skills.

Chi-kung is not exactly about relationship skills, yet, just like maximizing your body shape with diet and excercise, if you don’t take it seriously, you are not operating at your peak potential.

I’ve been fit for decades, and have consistently maintained a gym regimen, however these last 6 months or so have been more consistent, and fast regularly. So my body is looking a bit better. It doesn’t seem like a huge change to me, but I’m getting noticeably better treatment from strangers when I go out. I’m no longer sexual invisible, and in fact often blatantly not invisible. Indicators of Interest for a 52 year old guy don’t just happen from your location.

And indicators of interest also happen because of vibe, and vibe is of course influenced by your real lived day to day life and how happy and socio-sexually content you are.

So chi-kung is not only great for maintaining strong passionate love affairs, it’s also crucial to simply having a strong and positive stage presence.

Related: How meditation and chi-kung make you sexy

Update: One of my chi-kung teachers hypothesized that an increase in kundalini awakenings that started in the late 60s was influenced by the music of the day.

Listen to this:

Notice the high above your head feelings that are in harmony with the beats below your feet.

That is the essence of chi-kung; co-ordinating the whole body all at once. Feeling refinements that take deep concentration, then feeling other deeply refined bass lines. And more. Music and chi-kung are analogous and even intertwined.

These types of personal development of course bleed into interpersonal development.

Shorthand: if you do not talk about giving and receiving love, then you aren’t doing that. We talk about what is relevant to our lives. If you you are reading someone who rarely mentions love, no matter how much he mentions notches, love isn’t that relevant to his life. If that’s the case, he is not able to feel and give love.




Feeling your heart in someone else, and rolling down the road being the periphery

Jim said:

The Grandfather stage is where things begin to come together. Your insights become life changing. You now have the opportunity to live the command “Love others as yourself”. This is a very practical approach. As you are not “needy” your ego is not so much “in play”.

For myself with incurable cancer, I am finding this next step to be accepting the challenge of “Death is on the table”. Past that is the actual experience of dying.

Staring into the face of death is indeed transformative, and this has been somewhat studied and documented. Near death experiences and drugs that give analogous experiences increase the psychological trait of openness to new experiences.

And vice versa. Taking shrooms or ketamine or ibogaine can reduce the fear of death. I expect hospice caretakers to start to use psychedelics as routine quality of life enhancement.

For better or worse, I’ve stared down death more than a few times. And even now seem to stare it down every day as I’m of the opinion that I have early onset Alzheimer’s. Hoping new meds don’t get stuck in development and get FDA approved before it’s too late.

If I do get too demented in an irreversible way, some portion of me may be able to survive by restarting the neuroplastic phase of the brain*, but that would be like starting out as a stroke recovery victim, yet with much of the potential for learning of a newborn.

About grandpa love, and “being at your own funeral”, and how it’s an uneasy and slightly dissatisfying type of love, while at the same time very fulfilling and natural and the way it should be Shambala Awakened Society type of love:

When someone says hi to you on the street, that’s a serotonin boost of social visibility and importance. If you are famous more people will give you spontaneous attention and accolades, and up goes the serotonin.

But when you are swimming in a shared love space, that accolade doesn’t belong to you anymore.

It’s simply mutual celebration.

Does that make embodied sense to people? Is that your experience sometimes also?

For instance yesterday I was out in public again, doing two types of post-meditation.

1) Spatial awareness meditation. You know how sometimes when you are driving down a country rode, you let your mind relax and the scenery becomes vivid, and the periphery of the visual field becomes vivid as it passes by? You are totally IN the scenery. You aren’t daydreaming, you are visually embodied, in panoramic detail. So while walking in nature yesterday I kept trying to remind myself to let go of the daydreaming so that my limited attention could broaden into the visual field.

2) Loving kindness meditation. Love is an umbrella term that if you put a finger on melts away into a different meaning. But if we have an organ of perception for love, it’s in the heart chakra area. Sometimes that space feels quivery and quavery, a bit melancholic bitter sweet sad. Sometimes horrendously mournful. Sometimes it feels longing. Sometimes loving care. Sometimes shared warmth as communion. Sometimes shared happy sexual warmth. Even some ecstasy fits into the heart (though ecstacy is too energetic to remain bound in any one place). But that perceptual organ need not only be felt in the heart – you can feel it in your palm chakra, and if you like, between your palms in an energetic ball. Or even in your feet-palm chakras, and between those. And you can also imagine feeling it outside of your body, in the bodies of others. So you can feel/imagine (kinesthetically visualize – such that you genuinely FEEL as in feel as in really feel) that you have love between your palms and are touching love in the hearts of others as they pass by.

After doing this, some random guy who was not seeking monetary gain helped me out of my parking space by pulling the back of my motorcycle.

Coincidence? Sort of. My body language certainly must have been very socially open. If I were cranky and pissed off, doubtless he’d not have been so inspired to help.

But the social effect on me wasn’t of raising my rank. He reached out to help me, not because I was more of a King than him, but because I saw the King inside of him, and he therefore shared that knowledge with a wink and a helpful hand.

Awakened Shambala society.

It’s bitter sweet. Not really about building a legacy. Not really about seducing anyone to be under my spell. There is no social advantage in it. Not exactly.

There is the phrase “Zen mind, beginners mind”. It means that education is a lifestyle, not a life stage. It means that when you play the piano, you notice that there are dozens of different brain systems that work in concert, and you can focus the attention on any one of them. There is spacial awareness of seeing the hands and keys. There is muscle memory of learning static and moving patterns. There is the kinesthetic sense of being able to jump around the keyboard with your eyes closed. There is a weird and magical type of musical listening that is constantly wonders and is amazed that notes create meaning – and is forever interested in discovering new phrases and languages out of the notes and rhythms.

That last part of the mind is very close to the attitude of “Zen Mind, Beginners Mind”. It’s a two year old, sitting down for the first time at the piano. Until he’s 75 he’s still that two year old – still having no clue why any of it is there at all or why it means something, still marveling at discovering new languages and phrases.

I’m trying to get back to that again. I was a full time professional Buddhist in my early twenties. Lately I’ve been working to again make the post-meditation experience into meditation.

That’s what led to flipping the switch those few times. It wasn’t just time on the cushion. It was time as a tree planter. I did the “relax into the moving scenery” trick, while tree planting, and eventually the scenery became so vivid that it occluded the silly idea that I was looking at it. It was looking at me. Awareness became self aware. The silly idea of a bottleneck to directed attention called the ego was obviously no longer an accurate description. Things were far too vivid for that. And sometimes awareness would expand greatly – especially in twilight sleep, during times when the ego relaxed more.

Some people get similar experiences for brief peak experiences from psychedelics. But such peak experiences happen for many other spontaneous reasons too.

Formative year experiences get myelin coated, that’s why we always prefer the music we heard as teenagers. Lucky for me at that time I was very consciously working on the heart chakra. So that helps me to become an expert in love, as I’ve tried very hard to have a sensitive love perceiving organ.

And then in my early twenties, at the very edge of my developmental window, I was sometimes in full time “scenery” mode.

So sometimes I can snap back into scenery mode.

And now I think, for many reasons, I’m in a better position to grow into grandpa love mode.

Again, I’m not terribly happy about it. It feels like admitting that I’m no longer in the fight. That I’m on the sidelines.

But it also feels as if it’s a world that’s been waiting for me all along, wondering what took me so long.

* Perhaps a bit more complicated a feat to accomplish without causing insanity than learning how to enable the body to regrow limbs – but in theory it’s possible. Artificial Intelligence and quantum computing most likely will make it possible, through massively parallel multi-variable modelling. And if we can restart brain development, in theory there is no reason why we can’t add an acrylic dome to our scalp for room to grow, and for some new fangled off the shelf biological brainware modules.

A new life stage? Grandpa love

A friend recently asked me if I do any compassion related meditation exercises. I mentioned how a few days ago while at the gym I tried to feel love in my heart and connect to everyone in the gym. That wasn’t what he meant.

But I did something similar while in public yesterday. I felt chi and love between my palms resting on my crossed legs, and felt love connected to people as they walked by. Later as I strode home a few people spontaneously said hello to me. Later as I walked into the gym a girl beside her girlfriend said hi, as she was walking out. Strangers.

That never happens to me.

Unfortunately for my energy to be conducive to this, I go into a grandpa love type of place.

Totally non needy.

They say that you can’t be at your own funeral. It’s like that. To get that high serotonin, it’s not from a place where I really need that serotonin. I’m giving love, but not in a “I want to fuck you and need to be fucked” way.

Grandpa love. Probably a new life stage for me. I’m not totally happy about it.

But I kept up the practice throughout my gym workout. Later gave a girl who I used to think was snooty towards me a compliment on the way out the door, and she melted into a grateful smile.

Post-meditation meditation can be a real form of meditation. It doesn’t all have to be quiet and focused. And this type of loving kindness meditation can work well in crowds and public.

Moving past game 101 to relationship 702

Daysofgame said:

An active conversation with men with real experience on truly advanced topics would move all of us fwd… deepen the practical renaissance of sex/relationship mastery.

You can’t get better at tennis if you only play against newbs.  So ya, more people joining in from a first person current lived perspective at more advanced levels brings us all to better form.

You’re perfect to have in the conversation about advanced relationship skills because three things:

  • your breadth of study
  • your willingness to tease out the wheat from the chaffe in what anyone says, plus your ability to translate between different frames of reference and metaphors and ways of thinking
  • your Dale Carnegy high end skills of diplomacy.

An intern once asked me to teach him about Chi-Kung. I gave him an overview and a few lessons, and he went off on his own from there. In my understanding, there is no ultimate true method; you grow the phantom limbs that you choose to pay attention on growing. The framework that we grow on is very very loose. I don’t teach much of the traditional things, such as red on the outside white on the inside left side channel beside the central channel beside the white on the outside red on the inside right side channel. That channel is not a discovery of something real, it’s a creation of something that becomes real.

So anyway, within a brief period of some months, he was having very strong Chi-Kung and Qi-kong sex experiences. Very different from my own.

So if we get a community of guys talking about advanced stuff, we aren’t going to be agreeing on where is the right-hand channel and what color it is. But some underlying patterns might still be discernible.

The way that someones heart-chakra energy opens will be experienced uniquely for everyone. But love is an underlying pattern we will be able to notice. And we can consider the different frames of reference and viewpoints on love as real different worlds, seeing reality. The fun task isn’t to see the same reality, it’s to see the breadth and profundity. More info at once, and better integration of the massively parallel insights and embodied wisdom that are not surface.

My best guess (in part, as I’m doing this when I am “blowing girls minds”) is you are “bringing more and more energy through the girl.” This is “fucking her open to god.”

To quote myself: “You have to feel a lot in order for the girl to feel a lot”

I like the way you put it too. We all know that the more sexually responsive a girl is, the more fun she is to be with. Funny how guys never talk about that about themselves.

Children from a young age learn to sex differentiate. Part of it is innate; boys stop joining in on playing with dolls with the girls and get more interested in the Tonka Trucks. Part of it is just noticing what each group is doing. So I don’t know how much it’s cultural sex differentiation that keeps guys from talking out loud that they will be WAY way way better in bed if they FEEL more and are more sexually responsive.

Or maybe it’s because most guys are struggling to feel less, because it’s too easy to orgasm.

That’s where chi-kung comes in, of course. It increases no only your libido, but your control. You can hold MUCH more energy. It can be so intense as to be indistinguishable from pain.

I remember going to the dentist during a period when my sex was usually extremely intense. The dentist pain became the same as the sex pain for me – indistinguishable from pleasure.

That’s just one manifestation of high energy though. There are many other ways. Again, why chi-kung helps; to find many voices, to find many embodiments. And why formless meditation helps. To not need any dreams or embodiments at all, but to just let aliveness be simple. To appreciate the appreciation, and let it broaden in a non-local way.

Daysofgame said:

I am waking up to this. As I learn more, and the “matrix” slows down, I can change the course of events in real time… so “shaping her” is becoming more common for me.

What happens for me seems to be the reverse. I might look back at what I just said and note with some surprise how appropriate it is.

Actually, no, you’re right. There is awareness in that split second improv moment, and we are aware of what micro-split second decisions we are making as we riff.

This is very similar to improv on a musical instrument. I wrote a post about that, that referenced a study of jazz improvizationalists that showed that the usual analytical decision making process gets shut down during improv. I think we get more right brained, and the flow moment puts us both more into the moment yet at once less in “decision making mode”

So maybe it’s the analytical part of my mind that sometimes looks back and is surprised at what I’ve just said.

Because there is no time for the analytical part to make such choices. The other way to think is massively-multi-parallel. You can’t be analytical and fast on your feet like that. There is no time for it.

Lately I’ve been talking a lot about improv and moving into right brained artistic ways of being, as well as muscle memory from reference experiences.

I think we also need to talk about feeling love and lusty appreciation as habit. I’ve been chewing on that idea these last few days, waiting to be ready to write about it.

Together they add up to all at once a mixture of:

  • being into the girl
  • showing it
  • leaning back instead of leaning in, as Riv would remind
  • constantly joking and using her micro-shit tests as fun starting points for agree-and amplify, or role play or changing the subject in a funny way, or simply agreeing, or ignoring,  or banter and so on.  Her shit tests can be more than defused and disarmed, they become fun and nourishing play.  Another ritual of devotion, a ritual of improv that makes her laugh.
  • filling the room with lusty paternal love that lights her up as if it’s opium in the air.
  • a constant feeling of sexual addiction and lust; constant sexual flirting
  • a feeling of long standing ease and closeness, as if you could have a conversation with your lips touching. You don’t have to move away from the fridge as she’s reaching in, she’ll appreciate you just being obstinately in the way as she sidles up right against you, as if you share the same body, you are so comfortable and familiar.

So ya, time slows down and you direct her attention and who she is, constantly, but also it’s a matter of habit, but habit of improv.

Always fresh, always new, yet always of a very familiar theme.

Being into each other and celebration.

Such a type of relationship is highly archetypal, by the way. If you act like this on the first date, the woman will fall straight into it, in mutual role play. She will feel as if the two of you have been in a great relationship for a long time.

It’s a kind of secret society. That even virgins can join. It’s just archetypal and easy. First date sex, and first date openness and coupling.

D said:

And I created someone who could be loved. The other part was recognizing the same potential in the people around me.

That’s a big deal.

I used to live in a monastery with Pema Chodron as the Abbess and my meditation instructor. She’s famous for teaching about Maitri, or self acceptance and love.

It’s a rather huge foundational part of all Buddhist practice, without which one can’t deepen and grow it into compassion.

Or the simple common sense notion that you can’t love others until you love yourself.

And no girl will love you for long if you don’t love her. Falling in love is something people prefer to do together.

So ya, keeping that warm sweet fire of self love in your heart is foundational to being loved.

To be as literal as possible… you’re making the experience of being with you, so intense, that she is “on drugs” when she feels that, it “changes her,” and she expects to be in a devotional state around you… and she has evidence… as you continue to use her as a vessel to concentrate “intense feelings.”

Yes, and not just intense feelings.

You feel good. You feel good around her. You like, love, lust, and appreciate her.

So you celebrate the energy-baby that is the love that the two of you create. You both feel that love as a real thing. It’s in the room, and you both deeply respect that baby. You both nurture it, constantly.

That baby needs sex, comfort, delicious food, quiet time apart, and on and on. It needs strong passionate sex, time with her listening to you play your muscial instrument or watching you be above average at the gym, or whatever it is that feeds the baby.

She’s going to be constantly saying “I love you”, because you are constantly, quietly, feeling love.

Her mirror neurons will pick up on your very subtle body language that you are unconscious of. All you have to do is be into her, (and 1000 other things that are already natural habit) and she’ll associate all her good feelings with you, and be constantly addicted.

She’ll miss you while doing the groceries, or if you step out to the gym. Even if you live together 24/7, she’ll not only never tire of you, but might burn with love so strong that it physically hurts her in the chest.

My girl dreams of me every single night. Unfortunately I’m often cheating in her dreams, or about to. That’s my karma, I suppose. That must be in my body language. But it’s also just because of the love-existential-angst.

Patrice talks about “karate school.” Saying she “learns your moves” and eventually you have to let her go and start over. This is “betatization” sort of, but staying one step ahead of her “chipping away,” and when she is too good… push her out.

And you are saying almost what Deida says. He says, in the end… women always win.

This hasn’t been my experience. However girls will leave a guy, eventually, who won’t commit in the way she wants. Marriage with monogamy is a common line in the sand that a woman is waiting for.

Blackdragon and others contest this point, and say that many women will hang around for years as fuck buddies.

That’s apples and oranges.

Women who are deeply in love with you and already pair bonded have expectations – biological expectations. It’s called having a baby.

Killyouregotowin said:

“Devotion… Fuck you! Devotion… Fuck you!” This is something that I believe even a “Top Guy” will have to deal with. I noticed that as I climb higher in life, her expectations of me climb as well. Briffault’s law doesn’t even begin to do justice on just how audacious female entitlement is. When you are a drunk captain, she will low level nag on a constant basis, but when you are making serious gains on a consistent basis, the slightest mistake will bring out a tantrum of worried insecurity based on her fear of you veering off course.

Been there, done that. Never again. I’ve had healthy win-win relationships in my recent and medium term past, and am in one currently, that look nothing like that.

With J she started to get cunty consistently, and even though we were living together I soft nexted her. No way in hell am I ever going to live that way again. I stopped eating for 3 days, and for the next two months without fail ate only every second day, which was on gym days. I upped my game, and demanded better treatment. That turned things around, and she never dared be cunty again. When she slides a bit, I let her know, and she fears my wrath. My wrath can be very gentle now; she listens and corrects.

But I could not have done that with a personality disordered passive aggressive or low self-awareness girl.

Not all girls are like that, and either it’s your fault, or hers, or both.

You don’t have to live like that.

Oh, and of course I still usually only eat every second day, and still maintain the gym regimen, and do everything else I can think of to remain extremely sexually competitive and her best option.

Both people have to work fucking hard to maintain strong passionate loving healthy win-win on the same team relationship, feeding the mutual baby of love.

And it’s up to you to make sure she works fucking hard. If you are working fucking hard at it, and she won’t or can’t, you have to move on. For her sake and yours. That’s what I think. Nobody can win with the personality disordered, and if you are walking on eggshells, while at the same time properly handling your shit and her shit tests, it’s on her.

Mistaking the surface pattern for the deep pattern

Some memes I’ve helped destroy:
1) everything boils down to confidence, from Heartiste
2) alpha fucks and beta bucks, from Rollo
3) stages of mating, from Rollo
4) pump and dump the bitches, from Rooshvforum

Some memes I’ve helped to create and foster

1) romantic red pill
2) your woman isn’t merely vetted and found ready to go off the shelf, she’s created through your training her
3) RooshV and many of his acolytes lean towards Cluster C paranoid/schizoid avoidant attachment style.

Some seeming insights into female nature and male/female dynamics look good on paper, and feel about right, but are too surface to be widely applicable. What happens is that people mistake the surface for the depth.

For example:
1) Without a great deal of lived personal experience, you are not going to “know” what confidence is. That will be an abstraction to you. Confidence is NOT a mindset. You can’t create it by yourself. It’s what grows organically out of genuine reference experiences, and absolutely requires real life social feedbacks.

Therefore fake it until you make it is too surface, and likely will do you no good. * The only good it can do is to get you to power through stressful and difficult social situations, until you gain the real life reference experiences in which you are getting real positive feedback, over and over until you know how you are getting that feedback and can repeat it. You might not even know consciously how to get and repeat it, but your social muscle memory will know. Just as you might not know how your golf or tennis swing improves.

Here is a tweet that I found too surface.

Inner game is important Outer game is important Leading is important Fun is important Teasing is important Good style is important Strong eye contract is important But you wanna know THE MOST IMPORTANT thing? You can’t want the sex more than she does

And my responses:

For LTRs, a girls sexuality may be underdeveloped, in which case your higher libido will slowly act to train and wake her up. You still have hand from a position of greater libido.

But of course for big disparities the man will want other women on tap. Many cold fish women ripen within one or two years to become full out superstar addicts.

Sometimes a man’s strong desire is what ignites a womans desire. So wanting her less is a mis-read of the fundamental of not being needy. You can want her more – it’s fine. Just don’t be needy.

This is really subtle and tricky. How can you possibly maintain high passionate on fire lusty appreciation and physical desire for a little hottie, and yet not be needy?

That’s a real Zen koan right there.

You can’t resolve that within your left analytical brain, nor do you need to even try. That is ONLY resolved within real lived social experience. It’s not an aha moment. It’s not a math question you learn and repeat and get a diploma for mastering. It’s not a text message shit test from a girl that you can memorize the top five best answers for. That’s embodied physical social reality, that you have to grow. Real neurons have to get really re-wired, within social situations, until who you are changes. It’s not knowledge, it’s being.

Here is another tweet that could easily be misconstrued in a too surface way:

Women love psychopaths because extreme men are infinitely, endlessly exciting

Women live for feeling

Whether this makes “logical” sense is irrelevant

When your existence is characterized by experiential sensation and emotion, you are drawn to what makes you feel the most

My response:

Good insight; tease out the real value and discard the completely unnecessary dark triad. You can have low conflict high drama win win – lean in to artistic wild side.

Again, the surface interpretation can seem just a one degree angle away from the true path, but after 100 miles, 1 degree will lead you desparately, hopelessly astray.

We can examine each dark triad trait to see how it is suboptimal. I’ve done that in other posts so I won’t repeat that here.

There is no need to keep things at a 101 or kindergarden level forever. We want an optimal, high end, solution. We want more than to be treated as an Alpha, we want more than Mastery, we want and can have Wizardry.

I’ll explain more about Wizardry in future posts.

* If you try to fake confidence, you will immediately lose confidence. Because you are no longer comfortable being uncomfortable.

It’s perfectly fine to be very shy and nervous. I remember a first date where I was on the bed with a teenage hottie, feeling very nervous looking at her beauty-queen face from my late-forties fugly face, and I kept telling the girl over and over how nervous I was. **

That’s fine.

Because it’s authentic.

You can just use whatever is there, on the spot, to be real, and as fuel to connect.

If I tried to fake something, who would connect with her?

It’s the connecting with each other that makes each other feel good. Feel nourished. Feel appreciated. More complete. Less alone.

As soon as you feel so uncomfortable with your inadequacies that you need to ex-communicate them, you’ve already lost the game. Dig out another quarter from your pocket, because even if it seems you are still playing, you’re not. You’re mistaking the guy on the other joystick with your self. Put the quarter in the game, and get your real authentic self on the joystick, and stick to that one joystick. It’s all you need.

** The teenager did have sex with me, after a lot of fun playful resistance, and a few days later asked if she could leave her city and move in with me. I was infatuated with her enough that I would have knocked her up and married her, but her sister told her to leave me because I was too ugly and to stay with her current fiance. If I had only had the facelift and wig before I’d met her, I may have gone down a divergent path.

Sublimely low levels of marriage conflict

In reply to Nash’s post about marriage

All she does is devotion… then ‘fuck you!’… then devotion… then ‘fuck you!’ That’s the feminine.”
— David Deida

You have to build a relationship with a women to even create that state of devotion. And even then… that “fuck you” hiss of the chaotic feminine will be there to find you when you are not bringing your best game.

This might seem nit-picky, but I think Deida’s idea here is true, but only from the frames of reference of a top beta or an alpha. There is a level above alpha. You are talking about that level a lot in your post.

I’ve been writing for years about how women are trained, not found, and over time I continue to get better at it. Recently I mentioned how I’m finding it easier for there to be less conflict, down to a sublimely low level of conflict. Three years with V with little to zero arguments, despite some serious relationship stress such as other girls. I’ve mentioned before that her gracious and warm character imprinted on me a bit, helping me to have a lower conflict relationship with my current live in, J.

So my experience now does not match the Deida quote at all.

I don’t get any fuck you’s. As close to zero fuck you’s as imaginable. Even on her period.

You hit the nail on the head a few times in your blog post. The guy can be an environmental influence, as well as an in the moment manager, or “wrangler”. When shit tests happen, they look very different, and the level of sophistication in managing them can be sublime and simply funny. Shit tests can be just fun banter, instantly defused.

The reason I make this “nit-pick”, is because I don’t think we can keep saying over and over “Yea, but most guys aren’t at that level yet. Let’s just talk about the level people can understand and relate to, so that it’s not confusing.” We can’t keep things at a 101 level forever.

Even if you are studying high school algebra, it helps to have some idea about what advanced maths are out there and what they can do. You need to know what can lie ahead, if you keep at it. You’ll never get anywhere if you think that maths end at algebra.

I suppose we need a name for the level above alpha, where the man’s environmental influence already profoundly calms the woman down, and shit tests are handled so deftly that they change the very character of the shit test from anything resembling “fuck you” to opportunities for mutual fun play.

There is definitely a level above what we mean by alpha.

Wizard could work.


I have over 950 posts on this blog, and it’s not possible to summarize in any one blog post how to achieve very low conflict. It’s a gestalt of many things. To mention a few:

  • frequent sex – the more frequent the better.  And the higher quality the better, which can be a never ending life-long deepening, especially if you learn chi-kung sex.
  • looking physically attractive – to her, and to others
  • the girl has to be physically your style and you have to be really into her; so into her that just looking at her is a type of pleasurable sex.  If not, move on or move plural.
  • maintaining boundaries not only of what behavior you won’t accept, but of what behavior you expect out of her in devotion to you.
  • her frequently doting on you and following orders, as a habit that you’ve trained her to do in a way that she finds pleasurable and fulfilling
  • a constant sense of playfulness and humor and mutual fun
  • a constant sense of mutual warmth and love and bondedness
  • growing into unifying your mind and forgiving your own and her hidden corners and moving into your artistic right brained ways of holistic empathetic improvisational playing.
  • attracting a girl who isn’t fubar or personality disordered, and not letting others suck up your attention from social climbing your way into the company of such girls.

And much more. As I said, over 950 posts, and tangentially most touch on what’s required for low conflict.

It’s great to hear some of these ideas that were first seen on this blog many years before anyone else was saying them, now are common and popular on other peoples twitter feeds.

Either six degrees of separation influence is happening, or I’ve subconsciously learned some memes from a forgotten meme pool, or timeless truths are being rediscovered by guys who have never been influenced by shared memes, or Sheldrake’s Morphogentic Fields of a shared learning subconscious is happening.


Oh, also, the flip side to low conflict is high passion and high giving of value from the woman and to each other.

That’s the same coin.

You don’t get low conflict combined with low passion and low value unless you live in different houses and rarely see each other.  Actually, I have no idea what low passion would look like.  You probably need to not see each other at all, if you want a combination of low conflict and low passion and low constant mutual doting (with the man doting from his ritualistic and improvised masculine frame methods).


There is a flip side to shit tests that you rarely hear about.  It’s being treated as more than a king.  More than a leader.  It’s being treated with religious sexual devotion.  How many times a day does my mate say “I love you so much”?  I’d need a clicker to count, and we’ve been living together for over a year, and she moved in with me on the first date.  And her actions speak volumes more than her words.  Yesterday I drifted out of sleep to realize my cock was being sucked by this 22 year old devoted hottie.  She is out shopping for groceries now, and refuses to let the maid shop, because she wants to be inspired by the produce to make something new and delicious for me.  On and on she ACTS out her love – constantly.  She misses me even if I just step out to go the the gym, and tells me so.  And she’s no outlier.

This type of behavior is common and usual for me – so common that I was talking about love at first sight and girls moving in on the first date just a few days before meeting J.  And not just with random nobodies, but with girls less than half my age (sometimes closer to 1/3rd) and many points above me in looks that are my style and that I’m really into.  And I’ve been talking for ages about being treated with constant reverence and doting devotion.  At least since Kiki (another love at first sight move in on the first date girl), which was the year of 2009.  The beginnings of being treated with devotion for me go back over 22 years, but the beginnings of mastery and knowledge and words for how to do it probably started around 2007.

And it’s not a skill set that you learn and graduate from with a diploma; it’s a never ending continuing education.

A continuing education that you can’t exactly pass on, in book or any other form.  Because we all have to embody our truths uniquely and create and build our best relational selves.


Related, from 2013

LTR game can be so refined that it becomes fast seduction. Your LTR game becomes love at first sight game. Girls fall right into your orbit and can not escape.

Update: Nash and his commenters made many insightful and detailed analyses about handling shit tests and frame, which are in the essense of maintaining low conflict.

That type of deftness leads to wizardry, and a different lived experience of “handling shit tests”. It becomes second nature fun banter, and not a drama puzzle drudgery annoyance that you are forced against your will to deal with.

Same concept of “shit test”, but totally different animal.

Curious about a different form of non-monogamy

I have a long history of non-monogamy, however I also prefer to pair bond, so there’s been drama.

Most guys have fantasies about having a two girl one guy threesome. Some guys have tried it. Some guys do swinging or partner swapping or group sex or MMG threesomes.

I do quite a bit of role play with my girl; with every girl I’ve been with. It’s a great way to explore my own and her interests and drives. Sometimes we’ll role play while watching different types of porn. Again, a great way to find out what turns each of us on.

Me and my mate are both open and honest and into each others sexuality; I love to see her turned on. Some of the role plays are rather kinky; I probably shouldn’t kiss and tell.

But I’ll give a list of role plays that are common turn ons for girls. Very common. Too common to call kink.

* sex at a very young age
* sex with a relative, especially father
* sex as a high school student with her teacher
* sex as a secretary with her boss
* sex with multiple men in a row. Sometimes multiple relatives
* threesomes
* rape.
* multiple rape
* rape by relatives
* anonmous sex
* group sex
* cheating on her own boyfriend or husband.
* cheating with a husband with the wife at risk to find out
* being an uncontrollable slut
* being treated like trash
* being a prostitute
* violently dominant sex, including choking

And on and on and on.

Again, pretty well any kink you think of can be fun role play and is so common that you could almost consider it vanilla. Some couples hunt together for a fun little threesome girl that both like. Some people have interesting parties.

I’ve long tried to live with a pair or women that I love. I’m up for it; I could handle it and like it. I fall in love and pair bond pretty strongly, but I’ve also several times done that in parallel, and have been deeply pair bonded with more than one girl at a time, and had many periods of life when I usually had sex with more than one girl each day. Sometimes up to 5 girls were kept busy, but three is a more common number to have in the same city.

But last year I got really disappointed with the heartbreak. I’m tired of hurting people.

So I’m curious to lean into non-monogamy in a way that won’t stress out the girls. I have no idea how much jealousy I could handle, from group fun situations. I suspect I’m capable of a type of orgiastic group love and bonding.

Such ideas would not work for people with a high level of disgust and the moral trait of purity that goes along with that genetic trait. But I think it could be an interesting avenue of exploration into a more workable type of non-monogamy, that includes very deep pair bonds.

Me and my girl are very close. Might have kids even. I’ll be more able to keep her long term, from my end, if we are very accepting of each others pleasures. So far we are very much on the same page. She’s getting a lot stronger. Many girls take about two years to mature sexually, if they start out with little or no orgasmic experience. My girl now can almost have a full sex day holiday. She’s passed out comatose right now from too many orgasms, but I expect that her ability to come without losing her full battery charge will slowly increase over time, exactly like a runners stamina does with regular training.

Common “unusual” turn-ons for men
Female circuits of arousal

Bad Daddy transcends K/R, provider/alpha. Bad daughter transcends Madona/whore.

Is this attitude K or R selected? Provider or cad? Alpha fucks, or beta bucks?

The profane is the sacred. “Daddy loves you, you little fuck.”

It’s BOTH at the SAME TIME.

It doesn’t alternate back and forth, one microsecond at a time. It’s not two parallel streams.

It’s BOTH – all at once.

Think about that!

There need be NO dichotomy whatsoever between bad boy cad and father figure provider.

There is NO binary system AT ALL. Unless YOU make one.

The girl is fucking her bad daddy.

Which makes her a bad girl.

And yet they love and are deeply bonded to each other.

(Sometimes Daughter even likes to be raped by Daddy, and will scream “No Daddy No! Stop stop!” Many Daughters spontaneously played that game, deliberately loud so neighbors can hear, to heighten the voyeuristic drama pleasure, and they had perfectly normal childhoods with no molestation. It’s an archetypal role the same way playing the mommy or baby when children play house is archetypal. Quite the look of glowing satisfaction after they come playing that game. And boy will they be close and clingy in love afterwards. THAT is love. Love HER, ALL of her. Not just her Madona.)


There is an old saying that is popular among beginner and coffee-shop Buddhists.

“If you see the Buddha in the road, kill him.”

It means that Enlightenment, or Buddha Nature, or the true nature of your mind, is not an attainment or something external or different than it’s opposite. Suchness, nowness. You can’t escape it, and if you think you can, you are insulting the very nature of what Buddha nature even means.

That idea is very analogous and appropriate for how to have a relationship, and how to love and share and be in love.

There is no Maddona/whore complex. There is no spectrum between beta provider and pump and dump cad.

All of those archetypes are currently present in both you and your girl, right now, currently.

You accept them. You let them talk whenever they need to. You don’t have to keep them in a closet. You USE them.

You watch all different types of hard core porn with your girl, while you fuck. You sometimes have sweet very romantic sex sessions. You might even have public or group sex. And you love and fall in love and bond as deeply as you want; and you will want.

It’s all fine; all the same thing; all different flavors of appreciation and fun.

There are no separate boxes or rooms.

There is no need WHATSOEVER to strategize while doing pick up if you need to play more to her need for a quick fuck or to a boyfriend.

Just see her and play. Whatever is appropriate will come out, if you are honest and open.

And you might be surprised at what comes out of even inexperienced virgins, if you are fully open and loving. There is an inner slut in EVERYONE.

And lots of inner femininity in yourself.

It’s all good.

It can all come out to play.

There are no boxes. No rules.

The woman will want to keep you. She will fall in love on the first date; right away.

She will be so aroused and comfortable and at home. So appreciated.

No boxes, no lines. It’s all completely seamless.

If you think that you have a Madona/whore complex, you don’t have to change a thing. Just start by accepting how you feel. Never mind how you SHOULD feel. Lean in. The part of you that doesn’t want a slut wants to pair bond. Accept, embrace, and USE that part of your self. It’s real, and won’t shut up. Don’t make him shut up. He won’t, through any brute force.

And the part of yourself that likes sluts? Lean in. Sluts often have high libido, are VERY open to new experiences, and can fuck and fuck and fuck and come a lot, like world class top athletes. Great lusty hunger.

Ok, listen to and appreciate that part of yourself. Don’t be ashamed of it. Don’t put it into a room, and only let him come out to play when you are drunk.

Eventually the two parts of yourself will become close friends. One day they will be the SAME person. You.

You’ll just accept ALL of yourself.

Then, slowly, you’ll start to see that other people are also like you.

And forgive and accept them.

Girls don’t have a dual mating strategy. That’s bullshit. You don’t have a Madona/whore complex. That’s bullshit.

We all of us contain multitudes, AT THE SAME TIME. We don’t have to alternate, or have boxes and lines and rooms.

We can all just get along and unify our minds and love each other extremely proficiently, with humor and incredible top end top notch the best that we are physically capable of sex.

Pissing in her mouth and deeply feeling into her heart chakra is the same.

Nash is inviting me to try to be more patient with David Deida’s teaching weak points and hippy language, and try to see what he has of value to share.

It’s true I am less patient and not as good a listener as he is, however I do like to be inspired to point out flaws in other’s views, as well as riff off of others good ideas.

I wrote a few initial criticisms in the comments, then added this larger critique of a new age attitude to sex and relationship.

This might be confusing if one isn’t already grounded in Buddhist emobodied teachings. It might sound like I’m against deeply connecting to the heart. I actually often explicitly in many ways practice deeply feeling into my lovers being.

But see if this makes sense to you:

My opinion is that you MUST fuse cave-man ordinary joe language and attitude together seamlessly with Zen mind and tantric sex. No seams, no cracks.

There is no inner light to find. It’s allready all right there.

This is the Vajrayana, or Mahayana Buddhist, or Zen, or Tantric viewpoint. Tatagatha, or suchness, or nowness. There is no mystical inner dimension or realm. Yet Buddha mind is our mind and outer experience, all at once.

It’s inneffable yet simple, and takes either a moment to realize or decades to glimpse, or one can work for the realization and it never comes.

But it’s very seductive, and loving, to accept and appreciate. That’s a big part of Zen mind, or Tantra. That inner light is already right there. Her laugh, her pussy, her sexual energy, and even her jealousy.

Truly loving yourself and the world and your lover is fucking important as fuck. What you love isn’t some hidden jewel. It’s right there in front of our faces.

Using hippy new age language actually is an insult to real love. Because it’s not really loving at all. It’s loving the make-up, and not the face.

Pissing in her mouth is just as much Buddha Mind as is kissing her in the heart chakra.

THAT REALIZATION itself, and the absurd humor of it, is the essence of my seduction. We laugh all the time at the absurd shit and shine. It’s all grist for the mill. Nothing is sacred, everthing is sacred.

If something is sacred, that’s an insult to what sacred means. You can’t have sacred vs not sacred. That’s insulting.

That’s not what love means. Not what sex means.

We tried to record our conversation last night, but the ambient noise was too loud.

It was a long cocky funny and romantic loving evening. The cocky funny can happen only if you …

Fill in the blanks yourself.

You know how some people can get away with insulting others, while others can’t? Why is that?

I was trying to use my Buddhist background to explain it, but you can use more common sense language also.

It’s about deeply accepting ourselves and the human condition, and laughing at the absurdity of it.

You can be cocky funny about anything – making jokes about wanting to fuck the hot little child like girl across the street, jokes about incest, etc, etc, if you actually love.

A deep and penetrating love is mystical. Is a true mystical magical power.

Just like Nash’s ability to listen is a true mystical magical power.

And most anyone can do it, to some degree. It’s just quite a lot easier for the girl to open to and in love within an environment of all embracing (yet disciplined and boundaried) paternal sexual love.

Like I always say. You can make a woman instantly fall in love with you so simply. Just love her inner slut, and show it. The profane is the sacred. Boom. She’s yours forever. “Daddy loves you, you little fuck.”

Oh, you also have to make friends with the part of you that wants to own her.  So you make friends with her inner slut, and own her, at the same time.  You know she has drives, try your best to reign them in as much as you care to, while respecting her free will.  Common sense mature human boundaries; you try to keep her seduced, and laugh at the absurdities of the human condition of high free flowing libido.

If you only love her inner slut but don’t want to own her, that signals weakness and naivete.  You could just be a thirsty doormat.

Update: I understand that just saying the word “dominance” is clumsy and will bring up unwanted associations.

If you want to think about what dominance is, think about dressage; where a man or woman becomes one with a horse and trains it to dance. The horse does incredible side and backward steps, and together the two become beautiful and elegant. Or think of other equestrian arts.

That’s what dominance means. It’s listening to, loving, respecting, guiding and being guided by. Joining, yet from a position of authority.

Update: Last night we talked about how neither of us grew up with any decent imprinting of what a healthy loving relationship looks like.

Because my mother was fucked up, I had to work through dozens of weird relationships, trying to figure out for myself how to get the tons of sex that I need, and to give and get the love I need.

Does that make sense? If I was well imprinted, it would have been natural and my boundaries would have been better and I’d have more skills imprinted right in.

Instead I had to learn them the hard way.

However part of that learning process was still through imprinting. I found mentors and teachers.

I’m pretty sure that imprinting is a very crucial part of learning. Buddhists say so; you need face time with your mentor/teacher. I think it’s because of the sub-verbal communication that you can’t get any other way.


Update: Nash said:

“Give it 50% classical dominance, and then… look to see the TYPE OF LEADERSHIP where he is talking about opening her heart… what could he mean? Is he teaching you something that will cut back on LMR (junior level goal) or… blow open sex, as you show her you can not just lead, but lead TOWARD a place most men can’t take her… where she cannot take herself… to OPEN HER… to BLOOM HER OPEN.”

This is not just dominance. Or leadership… but leading her someplace very specific.

I never went to university. Which I think in some ways is an advantage, because for me continuing education was my education. When I was in the states I’d usually be taking various continuing ed and meditation related classes.

Learning is not a life stage, it’s a life style.

And so I’m learning from you. I’ve complimented you many times on what I see as some outstanding abilities. Very rare. You’re an incredibly good listener, plus very skillfully diplomatic, in a cheerful way. Great at comraderie.

It inspires me to try to listen a bit better. It’s not easy.

Yes, I think you’ve picked up on and put into words something important.

It’s not just dominance for the sake of it.

Putting it into words is tricky. By now you’ve read my recent post where I made great pains to point out that “the profane is the sacred”.

And above you talk about opening her to the sacred.

There are two ways to do “state control”. One is to get yourself into a good mood. The other is to accept whatever mood you currently have, exactly as it is, with no need to alter even a single bit of it.

Both are state control.

There are two types of meditation. One is doing something with your mind, the other is not altering your mind at all. You can’t really do the latter, without a lot of doing the former. Not usually; a few rare people seem to pick up on that faster. Some never get it, no matter how hard they try.

Buddhists say that the nature of mind is, already, love and compassion.

Awareness itself; just naked awareness.

But they also do loving kindness meditations. I very often deliberately raise that sweet warm awareness in my chest, and physically feel a real living embodied love.

Yet I do believe that we can’t pidgeon hole it. The profane is also the sacred, and if not, then we don’t really love.

You have to love HER. Not just what we want her to be.

Love and forgive AND train her.

So yes, it’s opening her to a place. But to a place that she already is. She doesn’t have to go anywhere.

Holding that attitude by itself is transfroming and gets her there.

Sheer lusty paternal love.

As you know I’ve studied with several chi-kung and healing touch teachers.  One of the more profound teachers taught how to simply listen with the hand.  Profoundly listen and see divinity with the kinesthetic sense, without altering anything at all.

Doing that feels very profound and transformative to people.  You don’t try to transform anything at all.  Yet the bare awareness itself is the divinity, and does transform.   Many of the students had also studied various more directly transformative energy work, and found the pure listening style to be more effective and profound.

But it’s not a philosophy.  It’s a doing.

I bet you have seen men that can do “dominance” and the DIVINE… and that last bit is what make these guys 10X more effective.

But I am certain these guys are for real. They are POWERFUL SEDUCERS… and precisely because they use different tools.

I want their tools. Respectfully. And I want to introduce those tools to men that are ready.

It’s unusual to even notice these “different tools”.

Tradition holds that when the Buddha got enlightened, he had decided to just shut up about it, because he assumed no one would be able to understand him if he tried to talk about it.

Yes, there certainly are different tools.  There is real charismatic spiritual power possible.  Love at first sight with young hot women several physical attraction points above a man is possible, not just once in a lifetime, but consistently, over and over, like a routine.

Talking about it is nearly futile.  Most people first of all simply won’t believe it.  Of those that do, who is willing to do the work to experience it first hand, in their own life?

Beware the serotonin pyramid scheme

Regarding teachers who speak to large audiences, beware the serotonin pyramid scheme.

The serotonin pyramid scheme is when someone gets flooded with a regular large rush of serotonin, and is therefore quite happy and content, and then from that position of happiness teaches that he has a secret teaching to success that you also can use.

Serotonin does some of what we used to think testosterone does. It rises as your social status rises, allowing for more relaxed and confident behavior. It’s one of the feel good hormones, along with oxytocin, dopamine, and the endorphins.

So someone on stage telling you he has it all figured out and has a life success system can be congruent in his attitude and really seems happy and confident as if it’s all working well. Therefore it could work well for you too, right? Ya, but pyramid schemes don’t work like that. We can’t all be life coaches, with a large following.

Once you have followers, especially in the context of a large physical crowd, it hypnotizes people and you can say almost anything. People chose identity politics and want to be in the in group. The teacher rarely gets asked challenging questions, and the group self-polices its in-group memes and starts to speak in-group jargon.

If the group lasts long enough eventually you’ll get in group politics as acolytes struggle to raise their own serotonin using the group for social feedback. This further damages the robustness of the groups memes against outsider memes, because the group think becomes more and more insular, and a world onto itself.

There isn’t much that can’t be known by a coal miner. If you’ve done much blue collar work you’ll know first hand that there are smart and well rounded self educated guys everywhere. There is little you can say that is important that you can’t say in regular joe blue collar speak. Jargon is the first tell of weak memes, developed from the weak insular in-group political environments that serotonin compells us to create or follow.

You’ll often notice teachers using jargon to dissimulate.

Strunk and White, in their book Elements of Style, talked about using Anglo Saxon based words in preference of Latin based words, because latin words are often pretentious, and used for status signalling among a professional class. Orwell also talked about pretentious diction. Don’t utilize your dick, use your dick.

Clear thinking and clear writing is meant to convey ideas to the audience. Not to mystify.

But some teachers will deliberately mystify, in order to constantly maintain their position at top of the serotonin hierarchy. They want others to look up to them, and if others actually understand what it is that you are saying, and learn the material, and are no longer mystified, what use will they have of you?

So instead of choosing the coal-miner words, they choose ten dollar words and create their own jargon and in group speak. Maybe it will be Catholic Church Latin Theology, or post modern political philosophy, or Academic in-group-signalling, or hippy-yoga-energetic speak. All perfect for mystifying and dissimulating.

Or maybe they’ll constantly bring everything back to archetypes, like a hard core Jungian. That’s also great to maintain authority, and to keep attention focused on you as it will take five minutes to answer a simple question, and you can wind around in as many circles as you choose, in a fine tap dance around and about a question. I’m of course thinking of J. Peterson.

The problem with teachers is, people usually only develop along a few lines of personal development, and then see everything from their specialty. When you have a hammer, everything becomes a nail.

But the world isn’t like that. You can’t approach psychology using the tools of egolessness. You can’t use quantum physics to analyze a Shakespeare sonnet. You can’t approach male/female relationships from the point of view of tantric sex. There are different domains of knowledge, and you can’t substitute one for the other.

Be very wary of in-groups that see more and more of the world through the same in-group lens. It’s a trap. If you can’t explain it to a coal miner, using his frame of reference, chances are it’s status signalling bullshit.

Nash’s ideas about BD’s system, and on Top-Guy in an LTR

Nash is a better listener than I am, and has a remarkable ability to learn from others, and synthesize various frames of reference and memes into a cohesive whole, then apply that to his real lived experience to further refine and synthesize, and then write down his ideas.  He also comes up with new ideas from his experiences, contemplates and shares them.

This is more than merely scholarly; it’s practical application with skin in the game. It’s not keyboard jockeying.

He also applies his knowledge of game very diligently and cheerfully.

Oh, and he’s remarkably proficient in camaraderie and makes diplomacy seem normal, while at the same time not being Mr. Nice Guy about trying to appease wrong views or to fit in.  He’s quite happy to disagree with anyone, no matter their social position.

I might be doing him a disservice to point him out, as power corrupts.  If people start to look to him as an authority, that could:

  1. Give some people false hope to think that there are shortcuts and that all you have to do is listen to and emulate someone who has things more figured out.  That can’t work because we all have to do the work of synthesizing other word views into our own, unique, lived experience.  Your  created embodied worldview will certainly be different than anyone else’s.
  2. Lead Nash to take on the role of teacher, which unfortunately usually makes people harden and settle into the views that they repeat while teaching.  The whole reason people become teachers was by learning new things that were undiscovered, and by being open to change.  Unfortunately being a teacher usually has the reverse effect.  Possibly why new science discoveries are usually made by the young up and comers, who are not yet in any position of authority.

So some of his comments on other blogs are worth a read.  Here is a comment where he disagrees that Blackdragon’s approach to relationships is as universally applicable to men with capability and interest to apply it as Blackragon assumes.  Nash says that MOST men could not practically apply BDs system because most of us, and most women, are quite simply too jealous. 

I agree with Nash about this, and have mentioned before it’s one reason I could never apply his system.  The other reason is that I have no interest (and probably no ability) in limiting bonding with fuck buddies; I don’t think it’s in the least bit psychologically practical for me to DECIDE how much in love I will become with a girl that I really like and am having regular sex with, and who is desperately into me.

Nash says:

“With non-open, covert lovers on the side… With perhaps an “understanding.” What is that understanding? That she might fuck another guy on the side.
— BlackDragon

Let’s start at the beginning, where we agree. Do attempts at monogamy *often* lead to “cheating?” Yes, we agree there.

In my experience, an “open” relationship means it’s OVERT. If it’s not OVERT/VERBAL (=pre-approved), then affairs are considered “cheating.” “OPEN” means some kind of verbal agreement that one/both will see other people. That works for some people — and I assume it works 1000% for you (probably less than 1000% for some of the girls you date, but that’s irrelevant).

I argue that JEALOUSY is an unbeatable force for MOST people. YES, we should see the world through rationale analysis. Yes, yes. Agree again. But that doesn’t mean you’ll “feel” good if you have any evidence of your partner fucking someone else. (If you’re in a rel where you don’t feel good… you must have a strong motive to do so.) And it’s a step WORSE if they need to tell you about it… it’s dumb, and/or graceless. I’d argue (since there are more graceful solutions), that it’s insulting.

NEW CONCEPT: If you have some **vague suspicious**, you will suffer less than if you know for certain, and even less than if your partner is talking about it, and even less if you catch them in the act. This might be subtle for some people, but it is not for me. Lance Mason would say “if it’s far away, it has less of an impact.” Lance is a genius at this level. I agree with him… you don’t have to.

So… the UNDERSTANDING is essentially traditional wisdom. Imagine a grandmother, telling her married daughter… “yes, dear, he might take a girl on the side from time to time, and this too is part of marriage. He takes care of you. You have a family… don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.” Timeless solution. The best I’ve seen.

The UNDERSTANDING already exists. And I think you know it. Many reject this model. But that doesn’t mean that many married couples don’t know “something is going on,” but don’t probe (and certainly don’t brag about it)… as the marriage has value for them enough that they don’t want destroy is because “she fucked the pool boy” or “he banged a cocktail waitress on a business trip.” The reason those are “classic examples” is because… they are classic examples. Again, I think you (or at least some of your readers) know all this. This is what I mean by “an understanding.”

If my “wife” (again, I’m a player, I’m not married) said, “Honey, I love you so much… but I want to fuck Chad from work:” In some scenario (assuming we’re sexless), I might be okay with that… but I would think she was clueless cunt to announce it. And if she said it in front of my friends (making me a public cuck), I would congratulate her on becoming a divorcee. “Hey Chad, she’s all yours… good luck, pal.”

This ^ is SLEDGE HAMMER HONESTY, (c) me 2019. Some people like it… usually only 1/2 of a rel. The other 1/2 hates it… or may tolerate it (out of weakness, fear or other motives).

For most people… the more explicit it is… the more it’s intolerable.

FULL POLYAMORY (the saddest most ridiculous version of this, IMAO) is full of one-sided love for the VERBAL OPENNESS, the explicit open rel. I have watched this community try to survive jealousy and hurt… I have no evidence they have (beyond isolated examples). That community is full of fools trying to do “the impossible,” and they suffer for their insane liberal “openness.” Mostly the guys… as they think it sounds good, but can’t get dates of their own, and their pink-haired GF announces she has a date with “green hair boy,” and her primary tries to “be big” and hates every minute of it. Sad. “Openness” run a muck.

So… what I am pointing to, is something you already know exists. You’ve all seen it in the relationships around you… you’ve been out to dinner with a couple where you “had a hunch” that one/other was having an affair. So did they. So did everyone. There is that UNDERSTANDING again… we all know it. And it’s an ugly truth, but it works. It’s less insulting than other solutions.. so it works (better than most alternatives).

And the reason those relationships survive… is because it is NOT explicit. If it was, except for “swingers” (which do happily exist, but are rare), that would be a very uncomfortable dinner.

I’m not challenging your model, man. Have at it. I am sure it works… for you. And for other men. Many of which I respect.

But the JEALOUSY CRITIQUE is valid. I think it applies to MOST people. And the “French Marriage” addresses that. And I like it. It’s proven. It’s sophisticated. It’s respectful. It’s smooth.

I do a version of it as a single guy… I date multiple women… I have had several LTRs, and overlapping LTRs, with other dates happening as well… and I tell exactly NONE OF THIS to any of the girls. No promises… but no SLEDGE HAMMER HONESTY either. I think it’s smoother. The girls know, they have a hunch…

I like it better. You don’t have to.

I didn’t find BD/s responses to Nash to be adequately subtle.

If I were to try to paraphrase BD’s overarching view, it’s that he has created a system to maximize consistent low drama happiness, and anything that falls short of that is fine for you, but he’s not interested in it, and can explain how other systems fall short.

For instance serial monogamy falls short because you’ll have periods of heartbreak and drama and unhappiness during and for a time after breaking up.

He says that a “don’t ask don’t tell” policy that Nash advocates falls into same category as cheating, and therefore puts the man on edge, which is a type of stressful drama burden, and besides, he’ll eventually get caught and bigger drama will ensue.  I think BD puts “don’t ask don’t tell” into the same category as cheating in a too facile way, with a brief hand-wave.  They are not the same category.  It’s a different thing.  Even if it’s a matter of nuance, it requires a different category altogether, and requires dealing with on it’s own terms.  There are DIFFERENT pitfalls and problems with a don’t ask don’t tell relationship as compared to an assumed monogamy with cheating relationship.

And I’m going to copy some of his last post here. 

Women CAN be “incrementally” better than others, in that “bigger tits” or a “better smile” can make us more interested and hustle a bit harder. The game of seduction is on us, so the primary drivers of making it work are on us, not the girls. So marginal gains by girls might inspire us. But as it’s on us to start the game, those bits about women aren’t essential. If a woman can follow a man’s lead, the game can begin… even if the surface rewards for a man are +/- a point or two in one direction or another.

But for a man, there are QUANTUM LEVEL skills that can’t be “almost-ed.” There is no “close” in masculinity. There is no “close” in being a leader. You can’t be “almost convincing” when it comes to her spreading her thighs.

This is why the classic Beta/Alpha thing is so persistent. Those “jumps” as Krauser calls it make the all the difference. They are distinct categories, not small tweaks. If you can make the jump… you can have the rewards.

This is why many very attractive men can get a girlfriend, but can’t create choice with women on the fly. They are surface hot, but lack the real drivers that really successful men possess. It is why men with money can find a girl that will spend time with them (sometimes), but it doesn’t at all mean they will “get what they want” from those women. Those men become cash-machines for gold diggers (some of them in the context of marriage) and get worked over.

An aside: lately I’ve been talking about how betas don’t have the reference experiences to be even able to know what it is that they don’t know. They have no idea and keep repeating over and over their clueless beta-viewpoint that a man with money that he shares with his women is just another category of beta. They can’t even begin to imagine having Top Guy frame of reference.

Hooking the girl – through good looks or cash – is a weak start, unless you have the skills to manage her psychology once you have her. Catching a snake is one thing. Enjoying it without being bitten is quite another.

This is rarely articulated. Unfortunately the red-pill/PUA/manosphere/androsphere/MGTOW/Men’s communities on the whole are at a basically grade 3 level of education. They imagine themselves as a university, with a full curriculum, but it’s still basically extremely chunky clunky cartoonishly oversimplified to the point of wrong memes that barely scratch the surface of what is required to maintain strong loving passionate relationships – yet alone strong loving passionate non-monogamous relationships. There is next to no conversation about this at all. And what there is is still very new and barely formed.

So back to Red Coco.

He does a great job of acknowledging some of the “side dishes” associated with wrangling women. How accumulating various kinds of value can make you more attractive on the front end, but also can add depth in the context of a long-term relationship.

I hear him saying that men that have been in the “boyfriend box” a few times know what it’s like to feel a girl chip away at a man’s frame. They can see the warning signs. They might have some skills in detection, if not control. A lot of that is true.

I know what that is like in my own life.

In the last 10 years I had two serious girlfriends where I lived with both of them (very briefly). They chipped away, despite my education in game. I could see it. I could deflect some of it, counter other parts, shock-and-awe her back into my frame… but the “betatization” of relationships is real. I wasn’t able to hold it back with those girls. And as I wasn’t that into them (and particularly that behavior), I chose to get out. My education and my frame weren’t quite what they needed to be… but I was wise enough to know I use boundaries to get back to a good place, a place I knew I could be happy(er)… which was single.

It wasn’t hard. I ended those relationships, got free, got happy. As the song goes… there are 50 ways to leave your lover.

But Red Coco is talking about a skillset that works within the context of an LTR. And I admire that investigation. Which is why I wrote this post.

Red Coco explores the idea that starting Beta can prepare you to function more successfully in longterm relationships. I was inspired by his thinking, but no… I don’t think that is true.

I don’t think being Beta helps, precisely because of the those QUANTUM LEAPS between categories. Those leaps are based on skills and qualities that the previous category fundamentally does not possess. The differences define the categories themselves.

Unfortunately this idea is directly applicable to Rollo and his readers. They are all stuck with the worldview of the underdog, and think that this is the real world.

It’s not the real world! It’s a worldview. That’s completely different.

Or as I put it before: ” He’s completely stuck inside a world that he himself created, and talks from that world, to people in that world.

That’s totally the wrong tactic.

That world is irrelevant.

Don’t be in that world.”

Beta’s learn a lot of bad habits that are hard to shake off. So starting there… will mean it takes years to get even middling success, as you “leak” Beta and girls can smell it, instantly disqualify you. Those Beta-tells push you down a quantum category… back to Beta… and barely fuckable, if fuckworthy at all.

We see this as otherwise “cool players” hook a girl, but they “like her too much,” and they stop running good game. That is a Beta-tell. That is a bad habit of a man that spent too much time in Beta Country and slips back into those patterns in moments of weakness. Once she see Beta… you don’t lose “a point,” you lose a whole leap of status. You’re busted from hero back down to Beta, and then… it’s gets worse and quickly.

For contrast, I’ll tell a story of an old friend of mine. We’ll call him The General.

The General is a piece of work (an imperfect man), but he is not the slightest bit Beta. He can’t imagine thinking that way. He is packed with flaws and many women would laugh at him, but he has always had tremendous control of women, access to women, he can make it happen (not with every woman, but with some girl) any time, any place. He is a proper Natural. He is the same way in business. This goes beyond surface level qualities of “catching” a prospect (be it a woman or a business client). The General is successful on the front end and also has the management skills and behavioral traits that cannot be faked, traits that hold together long-term success.

The General can display HONEST SIGNALS that are proof to many around him that he is in the category of ALPHA, even if he is not particularly Hot Guy. He is a bit short, bald, and kind of fat. But, he can pull with the volume of Hot Guy (if not the quality, but sometimes there too). And then he can run laps around guys that can only attract, as he is a natural Alpha and can control women via his own psychology and knowledge of theirs.

He is also a bit of tyrant. And I think that actually, totally serves his marriage. I have a side-theory that tyrants have the best marriages. Tyrant + restraint + benevolence, that’s the formula. I’m speculating, I’m not married… but that is how you keep the betatization process at bay. But I digress.

I don’t think most Beta’s will ever learn to be like my friend. Not even close. When they try, they will look like they are LARPing (= playacting and incongruent), and they’ll get rejected (rightfully so), or have short-terms gains that don’t serve them or their girls in the long-term.

Much better to start Alpha (which is not a choice for most guys, so this is theoretical) or… come from a family with an Alpha father (or an Alpha culture, etc) that instills this kind of Alpha thinking in you, so you default back to it (based on your upbringing)… even in hard times.

Now I’ll hat-tip to Yohami.

Yohami introduced the concept of TOP GUY to me here in this blog. Top Guy (as I see it) is a fourth category for male SMV I would add to Krauser’s totem pole. It’s above and beyond “hotness” (with that label, Krauser clouds the water a bit).

“Hotness” sounds like physical attractiveness, which is almost meaningless for a guy like me. He adds charisma, fame and lifestyle, but again, not good enough for what gives a man “hand” in a relationship. If you need to spend your time talking about how it’s all about hotness or looks, I think you’re a serious “junior leaguer” and I can’t be bothered to try to convince you otherwise (Full disclosure: I wasted some time doing that this week, and I’m bitter about it).

Looks help… yeah, yeah, yeah. Super boring, low-fidelity point. Swagger (an Alpha trait) trumps looks by a wide margin. A good looking Beta isn’t nearly as attractive as a less “hot” guy with serious swag. And above looks and swag is applied psychology. Mindset, yeah… which is byproduct of a man’s psychology. The player’s own psych (“inner game”) is crucial for Top Guy. And his knowledge of the intricacies of the minds of women.

Top Guy is all that. Looks are almost irrelevant for Top Guy. His swag and his insight into the churning gears of the SMP are what take him beyond hero (let’s say, a relatively successful PUA) into Super Hero – a man that not only has choice upfront with women, but can wrangle them once he has dragged them into his world.

I am no expert in Top Guy. I have had “Top Guy” moments, as I talked about above. When Krauser says he has fought his way into “Hot Guy” category, I think he is saying he has learned some aspects of the life of Top Guy (certainly more than me).

And I think most Top Guys are born, not made (most of them). Even if those skills lay dormant and never “activate their potential.”

Others are made. Like Yohami. I believe that he is Top Guy and wasn’t always. He says so.

I think I have had flashes of Top Guy… because Yohami schooled me so hard (he molded my psychology), and because I have APPLIED IT (this is not about memorizing theories). I have endlessly more to learn. But I make the jump up into Top Guy (always temporarily), particularly when I am working hard and have tons of options (and the Daygame Gods will it so). And then I slip back down into a productive Sigma lifestyle for most of the rest of the time.

Being Beta will never give you Top Guy insight. So you will essentially fight fires (or distract the girl from setting them), but never deal the root cause. She will fuck with a Beta. And fuck with him more aggressively every time he shows his “Bottom Guy” nature.

This was a big part of what Yohami was trying to teach. When you flash Bottom Guy at her… you drop down a quantum leap and you are really in trouble. A lot of the tools you learn in that phase of your life are half-baked recipes that highlight ingredients, but are really… nothing at all. And she knows it. So she works you out of your job (and her life).

It’s how nature intended it to be.

Being Beta may give you insight/motivation that will help you strive to actuate Top Guy… but anything remotely Beta, is the antithesis of Top Guy. Those worlds don’t coexist well at all.

To make it personal again… I don’t know that I could ever run a proper marriage. Perhaps as I have too much in my Beta past. I can run very solid relationships these days, full ROMANTIC REDPILL, but the best tool I have when things get rough is cut it off and start over. Short of that, I control a lot of the negotiation these days by controlling my time (I don’t give her too much), which means anything domestic is out.

I don’t want The General’s life, but I really admire the mettle of that man. He is a traditional guy, one that has had a ridiculously hedonistic backstory, but settled down, and now runs a business, raises two boys, and wrangles his wife (including keeping their sex life functional… which is almost all him, it’s amazing… no way a Beta could do what that man does).

And based on both genetics and his influence, I bet his son’s will have a better shot at Top Guy relationships than most. And certainly more than aspiring Beta’s can hope to know.

The game is played in psychology. And you learn each lesson via your own personal reference experiences. You can’t even begin to earn those reference experiences as an invisible Gamma (you can’t get girls to play). And Betas and The Dateables can earn reference experiences, but often the wrong ones. They learn what it is like to be seen as “high functioning” Beta. That is still a flavor of Bottom Guy.

No, I don’t think starting Beta has many advantages.

Alpha is the place to start (as Yohami would insist), as all of your incoming references are as a man that is seen and treated as Alpha. You learn the right habits… right from the beginning. You always see yourself from the right POV. And so do the girls.

May we all find the balance, the balls, and the boldness to inspire women to see us as Alpha (even if that is concentrated into the limited time we are with those girls). And if we’re good… tastes the fruit of the Top Guy lifestyle. It is from that “upward spiral” that the world opens up.


A comment I left on BD blog :

First off, about watch what a woman does instead of what she says, perhaps I deserved such an easy low blow from poor word choice, of “some girls will tell you upfront”. Or perhaps its dissimulation via red pill 101 obvious truths. Some girls will tell you before, during or after the fact. Some girls will communicate. Some girls believe. Some girls say and act such that. Ok, I think we can move past the “I’m more red pill than you” phase, and talk about the actual subject.

I get your point, BD, that ideally people can have open relationships where jealousy won’t get in the way of that.

I heard you say that if people are too jealous, they can work on that, and change, and therefore have more satisfying lives and relationships.

But I question if your theory of mind is accurate. I think you are making quite the big leap of faith, in regards to how psychology and neurology actually works.

For some people, regardless of how much experience of non-monogamy they have had, jealousy still happens, and there is no off switch. No counselling or meditation that makes it completely stop. They need to find ways to MANAGE it.

I believe that you have quite the simplistic theory of mind regarding the differences between people, and assume too much that others can be similar to you in their levels of jealousy, and their ability to keep fuck buddies at an emotional arms length.

And what about if a person does want to consciously change their level of jealousy? Should he just try to grit his teeth and bear it, until he just gets over it?

Again, I believe that does a disservice to what is, in favor of what could be. Start with what is, and work with that. For some peopl

e, don’t ask don’t tell is a good framework to start with what is. Jealousy is a hard wired evolved trait – it doesn’t disappear because of a world view or philosophy.

And sure, many people, especially here, will feel it less. Good for you! Don’t get cocky about it and assume that others can or will be able to have low jealousy.

And it’s not just about us men. It’s about managing the girls. You’d have to discard more women that you are into if you are strict about eventually being full disclosure about all details of who you fuck.

Blackdragon replied:

An entire page of text that says “I’m a really jealous guy and there’s nothing I can do about it.”

Good luck with that then. You’ll never be as happy as me though.

If you are not familiar with the term “dissimulation”, BD has been quite helpful in showing how that works throughout his replies.

I’m not going to reply to his last comment, as he’s obviously closed off from touching the idea of theory of mind, even with someone else’s ten foot pole.

Ok, fine. He’s got his head up his ass about his system. That’s completely normal and common; if you become a teacher and get followers, you run that risk. You stop learning, and start repeating yourself.

But such an extreme level of dissimulation tells us more than about his thinking or learning or argument style. It tell us about how he must therefore deal with women.

As his theory of mind about jealousy is so incredibly lacking, and as he lives a non-monogamous lifestyle, he will by necessity have to blow through a lot of girls, and only keep around those that fit with his view. He can’t keep around girls with differing minds and mindsets, because he won’t have the skill to wrangle them. Because he doesn’t care to even acknowledge that different mindsets have any use or validity.

So you get his system, built out of his worldview. It’s not the other way around.

But his system is not as red-pill as he thinks. I would have thought that others would have picked up on it. But again, it’s just as we’d expect. Wherever there are acolytes, there is group mind, and people self censor. They not only don’t want to be rude, but humans are evolved to never question authority, especially within the context of a group that they want to belong to.

So the teacher, and students, get these gigantic blind spots.

The blind spot is that BD gives authority over to his number one girl of who he can fuck or not.

He lets her decide how often he can see his other girls.

He limits his attachment to fuck buddies, and rotates through the fuck buddies if they ever want a deeper relationship or more time.

That’s nothing close to red-pill, in my view.

It’s a system, that works. BD has pretty good knowledge of women, and has one of the most in depth and detailed and well thought out blogs about basic 101 red-pill knowledge, and very simple forms of non-monogamy.

If you already have some experience with girls and non-monogamy and basic red-pill theory, you might not get much out of BD. Theredquest also practices non-monogamy, and was turned on to BDs blog, but said that he didn’t find anything new there to learn.

BD lack any interest in or need for theory of mind (that there are people who are not him and think differently than him), and his setup as a teacher from on high teaching to questioning students below, and his students gladly taking on that lower position, as is usual and to be expected, creates a situation where his head is stuck up his own ass.

That works perfectly well for him. He has a great system that will keep his head up his ass, and it works fine.

But if you have a psychological makeup even slightly different than BD has, his system won’t work for YOU.