Most of the most common red pill memes are more wrong than right. It’s become the blind leading the blind, with people parroting facile hand waving generalities that barely correspond to what they see with their own eyes.
And that have no clue of what is on the other side of the fence. No clue about a frame of reference that isn’t a beta frame of reference. No clue about that it’s a real option to be treated with passionate loving attention long term by a woman who maintains acquisitive mode, even while supporting a woman or living together.
This is a very DELIBERATE cluelessness. It’s clueless for two simple reasons.
1) Pua’s rationalize their lifestyle by turning it into superhero status. They choose to believe that women actually aren’t sexually interested in boyfriends. They only get really hot for pump and dumpers.
2) Guys who are not being treated as “Chads” are bitter and angry and want to maintain an attitude of sour grapes. They NEED to believe that the grapes are not attainable, and that the grapes don’t exist. Women are just shit, end of story.
Magnum said:
Women over 26 years old or so push for monogamy. Women in their sexual prime (18-24 or so) actually prefer to keep their options open. Even the older ones get bored of monogamy after 2-3 years and either cheat when a worthwhile opportunity comes up, or they lose sexual interest in their monogamous partner (or both).
You can offset this tendency by not living with a woman and keeping the relationship open, and avoiding legal marriage so she knows you can leave when you want.
It’s just how women are biologically wired to endure genetic diversity of their limited number of offspring. It’s not something to be upset about, but rather to accept and plan your actions around accordingly.
Ya, I don’t witness the same stages of mating so many people seem so certain about.
I’ve dated teenagers who were trying very hard (and sometimes succeeding) to get pregnant. My live in girlfriends have usually been early twenties, and all were pushing for marriage and wanted kids.
I also don’t buy this biological 2 to 3 year clock.
I’ve witnessed long term pair bonds. Yes, sometimes people have affairs within the pair bonds, but I’ve witnessed extreme long term and sexually active pair bonding. My grandparents, for instance. Boinked daily, got along great.
And in my own life I’ve been able to maintain strong passion past the 5 year mark.
All these “red pill truth” rules… I really mistrust them. It sounds to me like the blind leading the blind.
Magnum said:
Yes but you’re in Bali and not the US, correct? Context can play a big role
Yes, I’ve been in SEA for about 15 years.
But the US and Europe also has subcultures. Just like any high school has archtypal subcultures.
And women aren’t all like that, in any culture.
And women are different depending on the man. They are like water to a glass.
It’s well known now that there is no pussy paradise; the sexual marketplace is not grossly different anywhere.
Culture (and education) affects stages of mating. Latinos in the US like to get pregnant as teens.
Women are still the same basic primates, everywhere. Culture makes minor adjustments. Stages of mating is not a biological trait. Therefore YOU can be the culture that affects the woman.
I’m sure if we look at real statistics, and at what ages babies and marriages are happening, we won’t find anything corresponding to this stages of mating idea, in any country or culture.
Update: People are marrying later and later, and it’s a dramatic trend. But still, 29 percent of white women are married by the time they are 25 years old. And 12% by 22. Here is an interactive graph showing which groups are married by what age. https://flowingdata.com/2017/11/01/who-is-married-by-now/
And keep in mind education level makes a big difference. So if we excluded college girls from the data the number would be higher.
This graph breaks it down by education level and shows 24% of people with high school or less are married by age 20. https://flowingdata.com/2016/03/03/marrying-age/ (You have to add up all the percentages up to and including the final age you want.) You can clearly see the peak age for marriage for this group is 21 years old.
Stages of mating? Nope.
But I bet that a percentage of readers will go on talking about stages of mating as if it’s a feature built into women, even after seeing the facts.
I think it has to do with social signalling for some victim based in-group. “I’m one of the boys! I’ve been red pilled!”
And isn’t it also just a touch of gamma socialist entitlement? “Those girls are doing it wrong, waiting for their epiphany phase to hook up with a beta like me. They should marry younger, like they did before! And be thankful for it! They’ll be sorry one day!”
The entitlement is off the fucking charts. If you want a mate, be mate worthy. I doubt top guys have trouble finding marriage partners. Are you a top guy yet? No? Oh, better find a community of fail to complain and commiserate with. That’ll make you feel MUCH better. That’ll help.
Or maybe go after non-college educated girls? Girls in your own country from a different background to your own? Or in a different location? No? It should be delivered to you on a platter? Still fresh and virginal? One per customer?
Out-grouping women as the enemy and in-grouping the victim mentality socialist gamas and betas together helps the meme grow in strength.
Ya, but just look at the graph right in front of your face, and tell me again how you need that meme so bad, that you’ll just ignore your lying eyes.
Girls are girls are girls. If there is some upper class Asian girl in the U.S. who plans to wait until after she’s finished her grad degree before marriage who comes across an unusually good match, chances are she’ll marry him, if her family is into him, even if the average age for Asians to marry is over 30. It’s not cooked right into female nature to wait. Girls pair bond beginning as teenagers, and want babies beginning as teenagers. That’s biologically baked in. Stages of mating is not.
And conversely it’s not biologically baked in for high status men to only pump and dump. Pair bonding is biologically baked in, to men of ALL status.
I’ve read that some ideas are deliberately batshit insane, in order that to profess belief in them you are professing that you are REALLY REALLY a member of the group. Think Mormons, or Christian Scientists.
Update from comments:
Please keep in mind that a lot of the research has not yet differentiated between high T or alpha males vs lower status males. The ones that do differentiate, are along the lines of “women orgasm more for wealthy men”, and show that women don’t have a dual mating strategy as showing up in hormonal/ovulation patterns when their partner is high status.
****
Rollo heavily curates what studies he’ll admit into evidence, based on his motivation.
His motivation is to:
1) Prevent beta suicides similar to what happened to his brother in law.
2) Rationalize his passionless marriage.
3) Maintain and grow his position as a social influencer.
He has no motivation regarding sexual marketplace class mobility. He has not seen and does not believe that there exists the possibility to be treated as a King or Alpha or Wizard within the context of marriage or a supportive LTR.
As an example of his rationalizing his passionless marriage and of not believing in class mobility, he does not believe the Dave in Hawaii story of a married man learning to be the dominant leader and turning his marriage completely around. He doesn’t believe that this is possible, and said exactly that in a comment on his own blog.
He’s also said the he does not believe that it’s “pragmatic” to be both an alpha and a provider. He continues with his idea of an extremely strict dissociation between alpha fucks and beta bucks by insisting that high value men only choose to pump and dump. Yes, he said exactly that, in the comment section. Look to comment sections to get the gut feelings of writers.
His entire worldview, which he advocates as the ONLY worldview, is coming from the place of a beta. He thinks that this is reality.
Yes, it is reality. Unless you make a different reality. And from then on that reality is completely irrelevant. Has nothing to do with you. Women behave nothing like what Rollo would teach you to expect.
From an old Saturday Night Live skit on sexual harrassment in the workplace:
Rule number 1. Be attractive.
Rule number 2. Don’t be unatractive.
Rollo isn’t attractive, doesn’t know how to be attractive, and doesn’t teach how to be attractive. He doesn’t care about it.
All he cares about is preventing beta suicides.
***
Marriages are lasting on average about 10 years, give or take a few years. And average is not what readers of this blog aspire to be, I assume.
Divorce rates are between 40 and 55% depending on country and region. I’m not sure how the math was done to get the 10 year average marriage length, considering that MOST people never divorce at all.
Ten years seems fine to me. But some people are still chemically and romantically in love till death do they part. About one in ten, I ‘m told. That’s not a small percentage, if you consider that many of the variables are under your own control.
Card counting is not exactly gambling. If you are inexperience with women, you are rolling the dice on a marriage lasting forever and not being divorce raped. If you co-habitate and safe-guard your finances, and have a long history of doing better and better and learn expert level of co-habitating with women, it’s nothing to do with gambling. It’s called enjoying the best that life has to offer.
I’ve made claims again and again that I know how to keep passionate romantic attachment alive.
It’s a bold claim.
Xplat – wouldn’t both parties, Magnum and yourself, need to compare real data rather than anecdata from your respective posts? I don’t know if you guys could argue the toss either way.
I prefer to view this issue through the lens of biological studies on sex drive, desire and sexual arousal. David Buss, Helen Fisher, Esther Perel, etc
Could you say more how biological studies on sex drive relate to stages of mating, and to long term passion in LTRs?
Please keep in mind that a lot of the research has not yet differentiated between high T or alpha males vs lower status males. The ones that do differentiate, are along the lines of “women orgasm more for wealthy men”, and show that women don’t have a dual mating strategy as showing up in hormonal/ovulation patterns when their partner is high status.
****
Rollo heavily curates what studies he’ll admit into evidence, based on his motivation.
His motivation is to:
1) Prevent beta suicides similar to what happened to his brother in law.
2) Rationalize his passionless marriage.
3) Maintain and grow his position as a social influencer.
He has no motivation regarding sexual marketplace class mobility. He has not seen and does not believe that there exists the possibility to be treated as a King or Alpha or Wizard within the context of marriage or a supportive LTR.
As an example of his rationalizing his passionless marriage and of not believing in class mobility, he does not believe the Dave in Hawaii story of a married man learning to be the dominant leader and turning his marriage completely around. He doesn’t believe that this is possible, and said exactly that in a comment on his own blog.
He’s also said the he does not believe that it’s “pragmatic” to be both an alpha and a provider. He continues with his idea of an extremely strict dissociation between alpha fucks and beta bucks by insisting that high value men only choose to pump and dump. Yes, he said exactly that, in the comment section. Look to comment sections to get the gut feelings of writers.
His entire worldview, which he advocates as the ONLY worldview, is coming from the place of a beta. He thinks that this is reality.
Yes, it is reality. Unless you make a different reality. And from then on that reality is completely irrelevant. Has nothing to do with you. Women behave nothing like what Rollo would teach you to expect.
From an old Saturday Night Live skit on sexual harrassment in the workplace:
Rule number 1. Be attractive.
Rule number 2. Don’t be unatractive.
Rollo isn’t attractive, doesn’t know how to be attractive, and doesn’t teach how to be attractive. He doesn’t care about it.
All he cares about is preventing beta suicides.
Tiny small niche of worldwide population. At the same time a huge portion of the US female 15-30 year old population.
Xsplat and Rollo are BOTH right. Just talking from a different perspective.
Yes it is true that for the sliver of males who reach the desirable level; Yohami’s top guy, or a genuine alpha, female nature remains the same. Women fight desperately for their everlasting attention.
HOWEVER, when I graduated high school in 1987 the beta guys were still being chased down by women looking for marriage, because women were trained by society to get married. Today they are trained to not get married, to go to grad school or get some career success first, to take the Sheryl Sandberg route. For guys who have some success in life but are not clearly above the rest in social skills AND $$ skills it is really a whole different world than it was a few decades ago. And a completely upside down world from the time of my parents meeting and courtship.
I have watched the stages of mating game play out among a significant number of women in my social sphere. I can make a long list of women who would have been well served by marrying their high school sweetheart and having kids. Instead they moved to attend a prestigious college instead of a local state school – And broke up with a guy. Then they move after college and start again. And at some point they get used to starting again…. until they are 30. Then they panic. Panic mode makes them undateable. By 35ish they settle for some sorry guy and have zero or one kid. The fertility rate in the US has cratered. This is a statistically visible phenomenon in the US. Dalrock posts the marriage data. Xsplat is in another world. Literally. South East Asia is different.
I have had several reference experiences that confirm that BOTH angles are true. I came out of a decade of migraine headaches and social withdrawal, built some business success, had cash and was accustomed to running the show. But I had no social skills outside of a very male world. So I was invisible to women. I took all of my cues from old movies and books. In todays hyper-sexualized world I came across to women as nice and probably gay.
Then I let the business world go and became a skilled enough social dancer and socialite to experience what it is like to have women you don’t recall meeting chasing you down via phone and social media, to have women hover near you trying to get your attention, &c. Just grab them by the pussy and go. But I had no $$ so they would date me and try to hook me in as a sort of always available source of company and validation, but they did not see me as marriage material, because I wasn’t. I was broke.
So I do have a clue as to what it feels like to be the hot guy, to be chased by women. It feels like having comic book superpowers.
I think that you can’t really appreciate the world that Rollo and Roissy live in from a comfortable pad in SEA.
I have also dated an Asian exchange student in the US. Oh. That’s what it feels like to have a woman live a life WITH you. American women live AGAINST men and against their own nature. Even if an American woman wants to lock a top guy down for marriage, she is still fighting herself and her social circle at the same time. Yes her nature leads her in the right direction. But her friends are against her. If even a top guy doesn’t have game; if he isn’t aware of women’s nature and constantly on guard against it AND the woman doesn’t also guard against letting the relationship degrade, then society will encourage the woman to Eat Pray Love her way to divorce and perdition.
The other thing that is different in the US today vs. SEA or the US forty years ago is the ability of a wage earner to pay basic living expenses. Inflation has eaten away at the purchasing power of wages to the point where young people – who don’t own assets yet and rely on wages – just can’t cover the basic costs for two or three people to live. So young people can’t afford to get married and have a kid and live in the style that their parents took for granted. Its not impossible to do, of course, but it is much more difficult. So the vast herd of beta guys just aren’t going to get it done. Again, the statistics show the result.
Of course in overall, historical terms the US is still a great place to live. But the degree that it is also a #$^%ed up place is beyond belief even to me. It’s just crazy. I live here and every day I just can’t believe the stuff that I see.
Yes, I hear that the culture continues to change for the worse. Many people with options chose to leave mostly because of a distaste for the local women.
On the other hand I’ve heard from a few people in the US that if you are fit and charismatic that you can do as well as you’d like in the local dating market. They say it’s because most men barely try. I believe that theredquest is in the US, for instance, and that is his position.
I can only listen to second hand reports about the US. Lately I’ve read tweets that say that only social circle can work in the US, and tweets that deny this. Peoples experiences seem to vary a great deal. Everyone I’ve ever met easily gets online dates here in SEA, where I might go two months before getting one when I try, so peoples experience will vary quite a bit.
But as for the stages of mating meme, it simply doesn’t hold up to a reality check. I updated the blog post with the facts in graph form.
I do understand that it’s economically more difficult to marry, and that’s been cited as the main cause for the rise in the average age of marriage. But even with that, girls are marrying young. Apparently girls will marry young depending on opportunity and interest. Not depending on a stage of mating. About 27 percent of high school or less educated girls are already married, now, today, by age 20 or 21. In the US.
Married. Not just living together.
So girls are still quite willing to settle down, if given the opportunity or motivation.
Marriages are lasting on average about 10 years, I think. And average is not what readers of this blog aspire to be, I assume.
Ten years seems fine to me. But some people are still chemically and romantically in love till death do they part. About one in ten, I believe. That’s not a small percentage, if you consider that many of the variables are under your own control.
I’ve made claims again and again that I know how to keep passionate romantic attachment alive.
It’s a bold claim.
Rollo has a binary view as well – he is right and anything to the contrary is never considered because its just wrong. That sort of attitude doesn’t get you far.
Initially you think this guy is writing worthwhile things back in 2012 until you post a comment and the narky polarized view snaps back at you. Then his reaction to contributor mark mason or similar name i thought was very strange.
It also seemed odd that he had so much time to write these long ‘essays’ a married busy man – he must have many a spare night to write.
Men and women are the same the world over. Cultural differences adjust time lines and what’s important but people are people.
People always have some retarded comeback as well that prevents them from ever considering new information or adjusting their world view – you live in the US, its different you live SEA – And? OR this bullshit Asian women are totally different – they are still women.
There certainly seems to be a tendency in TRP community to over-generalize and even catastrophize the current state of women. In that sense I agree with what you’re saying–people are tremendously diverse and varied when it comes to life stages, decisions, etc. I just wrote recently and today about why taking a different approach to American women might be warranted, but it still requires calibration to each individual woman.
That said, stories keep popping up in major newspapers and publications it seems almost weekly, in which post-wall women in America are complaining they can’t find a husband or that guys are unwilling to commit to a relationship. I think this is one of those cases where in particular cities (NYC, SF, etc.) women are more likely to engage in this behavior, but you’re right to point out that it’s not this way everywhere.
https://redpilldad.blog/2019/05/20/reflection-and-an-interesting-question-are-american-women-broken/
Yes, location will also affect the culture of waiting. The stats I linked to break marriage age down by either race or education (not both at the same time). They don’t break it down by region, or by city population.
I was surprised girls with high school or less mostly marry at about age 20 or 21. That’s the peak of the chart – after 21 less and less girls marry.
I doubt that all girls in NY or SF are college educated. So that means that there are demographics and cliques and subcultures even within such cities. Meaning hundreds of thousands of girls in those cities marrying as teenagers and early twenty somethings.
And even college girls do marry young – just not nearly as many – for very pragmatic reasons. Not because “girls prefer to date around until they near their epiphany phase”.
As for the trend for women to wait to marry, and for some women to wait too long, yup.
The problem comes from taking that as a “nature of all women” meme.
The victimhood culture that red-pill has mostly morphed into is eager for excuses. Quick to take anything negative that could get in the way of their (usually hidden and burried and denied) desires, and externalize it as an insurmountable obstacle. And obstacle that is not only not THEIR OWN FAULT, but is the fault of a recognizable OTHER PEOPLE.
They then turbo-charge their memes with confirmation bias.
“Women are doing it wrong! They only want to fuck the Chads, and wait too long to marry the good neckbeards like me!”
I seriously doubt that even showing the graph that shows current statistics of women’s peak age of marriage being 21 for high school educated girls will make any impact on their self-healing indestructible memes of victimhood.
Even such a seemingly benign “observation” of female behavior becomes self poisoning self defeating toxic talk, that will directly impede taking charge and being a dominant leader towards the girl you are dating.
Women are INCREDIBLY influencable. If they have a nature, it is that.
It is girls, after all, that are famous for having mass hysteria. That does not happen to boys.
Girls soak in their environment and become it.
YOU ARE THE ENVIRONMENT.
YOU.
Not her mom, not her school, not her sister.
YOU.
Any alpha widow knows this. Knows how influenced she can be. Any guy whose had a woman cry on his shoulder then go back to the “bad boy” should be able to guess at this.
Girls don’t give a fuck about what other people say. They listen first and foremost to their man.
All you have to do is open your eyes to the non-victimhood side. To the other side of the fence. Countless story after endless story after another story forever and ever about women doing ANYTHING for their man.
Whole books on pimpology explaining exactly how to make women do ANYTHING you tell them to.
Guys who have been pussy whipped are so deathly afraid of putting themselves in that position again that they can’t even imagine a cock whipped woman.
And what I advocate and do my best to teach is the combination of dominance with sensitivity. Leadership that is earned, deserved, sought after, appreciated, and honored. Leadership with love.
Guys are so terribly afraid that this option could even exist at all. They’ll refute the very idea of it, as fast as their brains can process even the smell of the idea. BOOM – REFUTED!!!!!1!!!!