Many influential manosphere leaders have no Long Term Relationship skills. And don’t care.
I suggest that this is a gaping hole in fulfilling their male potential.
A man has not optimized his lifestyle if he does not have a main woman ally. A main woman is an emotional support akin to having a crew; she is always there to back you up. She feeds you, takes care of your environment, supports you physically and mentally, supports your life in every possible way that you can assign to her.
It’s far too easy to sink into the pity party and commiserate. Mentors should be happy and successful. A man is not yet successful if he doesn’t even have a bottom bitch.
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Western men – and PUAs and MGTOWs especially – are in many ways worse than the very women they’re complaining about. Your approach towards women is like the difference between learning how to grow your own food versus ordering fast-food every night. Sure, fast-food will satisfy your hunger, but it’s mostly empty calories, and you miss out on the discipline and focused learning that comes with figuring out how to grow things on your own.
PUAs never bothered to learn how to grow and now they’re complaining that their fast-food is making them sick. Meanwhile, the women are all left wondering where all the “good men” (the men who know how to grow and build things) have gone.
I like that analogy.
It’s true, the skills you learn in maintaining deep relationships with women require personal growth and development of knowledge. Just knowing how to do it and being emotionally capable of it makes life richer.
That is the exact analogy that I’ve been using for years, not in reference to PUAs (because I didn’t even know PUAs existed until recently) but in general reference to guys who look only to get laid, rather than focusing on developing nourishing, sustaining relationships with women.
I guess that means a man must cultivate a cunt of his own rather than pursue free-range pussy.
@UCB,
I try to have compassion for them. Think of it:
* they don’t get laid until their twenties;
* they don’t know the feeling of being so wanted by hot females that those females physically ache in their absence;
* they don’t know what it feels like to have hot females plead to be their bitch; and,
* they surely don’t understand the feeling having hot females beg them to bear their children.
And then somewhere along the way they stumble upon some PUA “guru” or another, learn to hit the bars, and run silly scripts and routines, and the “fact” that big bad “AMOGs” are out to get them, believe that they have mastered the finer points of being social, and convince themselves that they have A/B tested the condition of human sexuality down to its vital core… and yet, not once, ever, in their sad little lives, has a hot female ever begged to bear their children.
As if that weren’t pathetic enough, the females that they manage to bed with their PUA silliness, according to them, are only reacting to all the social switches, which they, the PUA, has distilled down into a mathematical certainty. The implications of this world view—of which the PUA’s subconscious is all too aware—is that those females see NOTHING in the PUA; they are mere automatons reacting to the stimuli put forth by the “master PUA.” What a mind fuck. What a traitorous betrayal of one’s self.
These sad little creatures paint themselves into this corner during their emergence from social oblivion as a defense mechanism to make them feel safe enough to take those first steps into a new life. The well-adapted among the PUAs sooner rather than later shed those training wheels and go on to live relatively normal lives. The sad little ones who hang on too long internalize those training wheels until they become one with them, thusly forever dooming them to disdain females for never loving them for what they are inside, rather than their merely responding to the PUA’s training wheel induced external stimuli that will forever remain separate from the sad little PUA’s existence as a being.
On top of all of the above, most of these sad little PUA’s also develop incredibly degenerate general social habits, like constant faux framing and believing they are perpetually engaged in imaginary AMOG conflict with every male they encounter who poses to their fragile training wheel propped egos the slightest measure of threat to their ability to compete sexually. This often makes holding compassion for them difficult.
It’s sad.
“…and now they’re complaining that their fast-food is making them sick.”
Just re-read this comment and glad I did. Lot of good stuff in there.
Where is this post coming from, an alternate universe where attractive women are actually interested in committing and cultivating a relationship with a man?
Statistically they’re more common than you might think. They can just afford to be more picky in who they choose.
Hmmm, statistically I think the opposite has been happening, unless committing to someone over 30 and a notch count in two digits is your definition of someone a man must be committing to…
Women are not THAT culturally created. There isn’t just recently a NEW kind of women being born.
Girls still get high school crushes, they still fall in love, and they still have boyfriends and marry.
Everywhere.
Now maybe they are not falling in love with YOU, but that doesn’t mean that women are now transformed into a brand new type of never before seen being.
Girls are girls are girls and will always be girls.
Here is a quote from the a comment by New Yorker on therationalmale.com
I know it will provoke ire to say this, but inspiring LTR devotion is not easy. You can’t just expect the culture to hand you a wife on a plate. You have to become a guy in the top 10% of something or other – you have to make yourself special and valuable and good and important to her.
You have to become a relationship expert Better at relationship than 90% of the other guys. And that takes time and effort. And even that’s not enough. A man needs hand by being valuable in all possible ways.
There are some great bloggers out there who really get it. I could list off some of my favorites but I’m afraid I’d leave some out, so for now I’ll just mention Victor Pride of boldanddetermined.com , who has commented in this post about love slaves and this post about dominant sex talk that his experience with women is near identical.
Victors blog is mostly about becoming a better man, in all ways, including financially. He’s not a fake it till you make it confidence rules kind of guy. Victor is the kind of guy who naturally falls into dominance roles as an extention of who he has made himself into.
There are good role models out there.
And there are crappy ones.
The crappy ones are far too popular and their influence can be pernicious. Heartiste for instance over-values confidence and lauds mental pathology while Roosh over values independence. This leads men to neglect their livelihoods and neglect their ability to inspire and enjoy intimacy.
May as well say I’ve been appreciating alphagameplan.blogspot.com and laidnyc.wordpress.com lately, and of course Rollo is a hero. Rivelino has a great twitter feed and fine blog. Yousowould and cedonulli and masterdogen are sympatico. Steve Jabba shares some attitudes and has written many great articles and knows stuff about pick up that I don’t even know that I don’t know. Krauser also shares many attitudes and of course is a pick up master. Danger and Play shares many attitudes and has lots of good info about dominance. InnerGameStickingPoints.pdf is a good article, and they probably have other good material. Many important others I also read and appreciate but am neglecting to mention, much to my shame.
Xsplat, I would be really, really, really curious to hear your take on this post by Blackdragon:
http://www.blackdragon-blog.com/2013/09/29/women-get-bored-with-their-monogamous-men-even-more-scientific-proof/
I’m curious about your take on both the main claim (women are biologically programmed to lose sexual attraction to their partners after 1-4 years) and Maldek’s comment at the bottom (claiming that the cause is the woman’s not having a baby).
Can proper lovemaking and/or topping prevent the women-get-bored thing?
I usually only stay with a girl for a year or two, so I don’t have a lot of personal data. One girl I stayed with 2.5 years and she was still deeply bonded and invested when I left her, and remained deeply infatuated for many years after, and is still hanging around, and my current live in has been with me for 3 years and is at least as passionate and attentive as ever. We fuck at least once a day and she still wants to marry me and have kids even though she knows I spend a lot of time and some nights with my other girl.
So while I’d agree that infatuation and passion commonly have a time limit, in some cases that can be extended.
Got a bevy of ’em.
I drive cab in a small town. Plenty of older folks, especially widows. I think it was Captain Capitalism who wrote a while back of the charms of old ladies. Women raised on Grant & Hepburn.
The walkers and wheelchairs are a pain, but all the same. Flirt heavily. Carry groceries, open doors, change light bulbs, be generally useful. Get fed.
Fuck the sluts, sure, but for everything else they are utterly useless.
“I try to have compassion for them. Think of it:
* they don’t get laid until their twenties;
* they don’t know the feeling of being so wanted by hot females that those females physically ache in their absence;
* they don’t know what it feels like to have hot females plead to be their bitch; and,
* they surely don’t understand the feeling having hot females beg them to bear their children.”
Yes, this is the kind of life experience that creates the vicious cycle. The thing is that most men never experience the things mentioned above; only the lucky few do (so-called “naturals”). From my personal experience, without any bs or self-absorbed whining, I can say that a woman never approached me or begged me to pay attention to her, have sex with her or begged me to bear her child. That simply doesn’t happen to me, and from what I can see from my friends and all the guys I know it’s the same for them. One or two guys have to fight off horny women chasing them, the others beg for scraps, and usually get rejected. What happens next? Well, all those rejected lonely guys find PUA community and try the techniques, have some success and think they’ve solved their problems.
Of course, the pua lifestyle is pretty sad itself but for many it’s better that their previous lives. I speak from experience here. Like I’ve said in the lengthy and awesome discussion with Xsplat these past few days, I’ve never embraced the pua lifestyle and don’t intend to, but I can certainly understand the appeal it holds to many men. When you spend months and years without sex, without female companionship, without any sign of affection from women you’ll do pretty much anything to turn things around, just to feel like a normal human being. I don’t think it’s about sex that much, it’s more about affection.
So, a person’s original lifestyle is not good, the adopted pua lifestyle isn’t good either, so what’s left? The kind of lifestyle that includes forming healthy and loving relationships with women. That sounds good to me, and I believe to most men (on a subconscious lever certainly, even though some men won’t admit it rationally). However, how can one get to that point when women simply ignore your efforts and certainly don’t beg you for sex or fall in love with you?
That’s the big question that nobody in the whole manosphere has yet answered (as far I know). The best answer I’ve heard is self-improvement but that’s always vague and not always true. Sure, you should work on yourself, but we all know guys who are broke, ambitionless, not good looking and get all the women they want. So there must be some underlying cause by which they generate attraction, but what the hell is it, nobody can say exactly. My best guess on why a lot of people can’t generate that level of attraction in women, based on my personal experience and nothing else, is screwed up psychological imprints which happened during childhood.
What some guys do is work their way up the food chain, gaining experience wherever they can get it, all the while decade after decade working to increase their value.
Older women are good for this climb. A guy has to start somewhere.
And as status is relative a change in location can increase a guys value. Of course he’ll get played for a chump until he’s been learned, but still.
I’m working on the project of upping my value to be able to climb the food chain and get better women. My girls are reasonably young and hot, but I want to eventually get some smart and perhaps even cultured girls. That will take some work. Life is good but there is still a great deal of room for improvement. That’s inspiring.
Hm, I understand what you’re saying and I agree, but if this was the only way to get women, people would spend decade after decade working on their value and that would mean most people would have satisfying love lives when? – in their 40’s and 50’s? What to do between puberty and that time; go for any girl that wants you whether she’s ugly or fat or resign yourself to porn?
I don’t mind hard work, and I’m first to say that shortcuts like pua mind tricks are stupid, but one of my close friends has been getting attention from 95% girls he knew from our highschool days. He literally has his pick of women, and he’s smart so he choose not only the hot ones, but also the normal ones. He also almost dropped out of highschool, now works a dead-end job and generally doesn’t have much ambitions besides drinking and getting laid.
Other example is my neighbor, a guy in his late 30’s who lives with his mom, never held a job in his life, and literally spends his days sitting on a bench in front of his building. He’ also slightly overweight and not that good looking. I’ve seen hot women literally come to his home across the city to be with him and compete with each other to get his attention.
My point is – these guys never “worked on their value”, they are simply being themselves and living carefree lives and manage to attract women without problem (and they’ve managed to do it from a young age). So they must be doing something right -or rather, they’re “being” right, as far as I can see. Most of my efforts are currently spent on figuring out what is that quality they have and most guys don’t.
Speaking of value, how would you define it? I hear a lot of guys speak about it, but it seems that it means different thing to every one of them.
Ya, that would make good sense to try to figure out what those guys are doing. Let me know if you find out.
Guys offer value in different ways. I’ve posted my thoughts about it here https://xsplat.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/how-to-keep-a-woman-in-aquisitive-mode/ and other places.
Kind of, ya. Or fuck the crazy or old broads. Got to start somewhere. Fuck the best you can get, but get something.
Women speak an entirely different language than men. It takes being with women to learn it. Learning that language is part of what’s necessary to being attractive and inspiring to women. Theory is good, but the learning happens in practical application. Got to start somewhere.
For instance last night N told me that she would be travelling to Singapore for a few weeks with her Aunt, and mentioned that it’s good for me because I can have fun while she’s gone. I translated her woman speak for her, I told her that I don’t believe that she will go, that she would miss me too much, and that the only reason she was mentioning it at all was to test me to see if I cared. I told her that her insecurity was really annoying and to stop it.
At first she denied her girl games. When I persisted and insisted that I know from experience what her girl-speak meant, she asked if all girls talk that way, and I told her no, only the psycho ones. Told her that it takes all the fun out of caring for her if she can’t even feel cared for. Told her that I’m going to get her a pendant so that she can hold onto it when she misses me or is feeling insecure. Told her that she needs to work on herself and grow up and stop being so negative.
She then told me that she was not going to go and that she’s lucky to have me and could never find another guy like me.
Mostly women twist guys around their finger. They play guys like fiddles. It takes much practice and experience to be able to speak woman and to play them better than they play you. The knowledge comes the hard way.
For what it’s worth, I’ve always a) gotten a kick out of, and b) found a plain-spoken wisdom in one of David Lee Roth’s quips about women.
We’re talking about a man who got started in his early teens with girls, and then became a rock star with women flinging themselves at him for decades. By his own account, bedding 5 women at once was his personal record. He’s never married, but admits to having been in love a few times, and he’s now in his 50s with a serious girlfriend in her 20s (not sure about his extracurricular activities, if any). Anyway, let’s agree that Dave’s about as charismatic, good looking, rich, confident, high social status and genuinely accomplished a gentleman as you’ll statistically encounter.
His take, back in his heyday?
“No, I don’t get all the women that I want. But I do I get all the women that want me!”
Point being, I think: you’ve always gotta choose from among the women (and, more importantly, the “sex & love & lifestyle” options…which you should have more imagination about than 98% of PUAs do, agreed) that you’ve got at a given stage of your life.
Second point being: no matter how awesome those options are (or look to an outsider to be), your appetite’s gonna tend to be even bigger than your options. (See a previous post by Xsplat on how one’s ambitions grow to accommodate expanding realistic possibilities.)
Not sure that anecdote is 100% germane to the topic(s) at hand, but something prompted me to chime in with it, so….
“That’s the big question that nobody in the whole manosphere has yet answered (as far I know). The best answer I’ve heard is self-improvement but that’s always vague and not always true. Sure, you should work on yourself, but we all know guys who are broke, ambition-less, not good looking and get all the women they want. So there must be some underlying cause by which they generate attraction, but what the hell is it, nobody can say exactly. My best guess on why a lot of people can’t generate that level of attraction in women, based on my personal experience and nothing else, is screwed up psychological imprints which happened during childhood.”
I don’t know that this question has really been answered, but it has certainly been addressed. The first thing that jumps out at me is that these guys have way more free time than the average guy. You gotta remember that humans aren’t wired for modern times; we’re basically the same genetically as our prehistoric ancestors. A guy who doesn’t have to get up and go to work everyday has way more time to invest in his “tribe” than a 9-5er. The smart ones will fall into a niche and start developing their value within that wider group — hipsters, music guys, promoters, druggies, yoga dudes, whatever. It’s all the same game. In many ways, game is just a massive crutch for guys who never figured out how to do this on their own or who never saw the value in it. Being a 9-5er who relies on game to pickup girls is among the worst ways to meet women, at least from a time investment perspective.
The flip side though is that many of these guys will have fallen flat on their faces by the time 30 rolls around. Many also struggle massively if you taken them out of their natural environment. Except for a few naturally charismatic types, most have terribly underdeveloped social skillsets. They attract a lot of hot young women because in a lot of ways they ARE like hot young women.
Men really aren’t that much different from women in this respect. We use game and “value” to make up for what we lack in other areas. Athletes, musicians, drug dealers, the naturally charismatic and/or tall and good-looking, celebrities — these guys don’t need game nor do they ever have to worry about building value. But, like women, they all tend to peak early — with a few obvious exceptions.
The answers are all there, you just gotta figure out how to piece them all together. Watch Kumare if you haven’t. It’s the purest form of tribal game I’ve ever seen depicted on-screen.
Also, the best strategies for meeting women have very little to do with game. Cut your expenses to the bone, cut back your work schedule as much as humanly possible, and use whatever free time and energy you gain to explore the world and learn something interesting. Xsplat, Victor, cedo, naughty nomad, maverick traveler, captain capitalism… all of these guys are doing it on some level. And they are all doing better in many ways than 99% of the guys running PUA/game blogs.
@Xsplat – the article about value is awesome, thanks for the link. Probably the best and simplest explanation of value I’ve come across.
@Renfrew – that’s some good advice.