Mike ash wrote a thoughtful reply to the discussion sparked by this thread on the MGTOW forum.

I’m dragging my reply out from the comments section of MGTOW part 2, as this is my first introduction to western grass eaters; I never knew that people like this existed. This isn’t just a movement or a philosophy or approach to women, this is, apparently, also a body type and mental type of human. A group of guys with a similar psycho-somatic gestalt. The pudgy low testosterone grass eaters who advocate to others to avoid sex.

xsplat: “The MGTOW crowd seem to have intimacy avoidance issues, and view normal human emotions and psychological requirements as pathological.”

Mike: You do realize there is more to intimacy than sex, right? One size does not fit all. What works great for you, works because it’s what is important to you.

I have been married, had long term relationships, short term relationships, and am a father to a great daughter. I understand the attraction, and people feeling like they need to “have someone in their life”. What I also realize, is that intimacy and relationships are not dependent on sex. I love having dinner with my parents, catching up on what they’ve been up to. I love planning an afternoon to catch up with my daughter who is busy with work and college. I love going on day long motorcycle rides with friends, followed by dinner and great conversation until the wee hours of the morning. You see, I experience “normal human emotions and psychological requirements” too.

Lack of sex has nothing to do with lack or avoidance of intimacy. My most fulfilling roles in life and relationships have nothing to do with my libido.

I wasn’t commenting on the very notion of mgtow, I was commenting on the specific comments on that thread in the mgtow forum and what they imply about the commentors there. In those comments many expressed the idea that other people having sex was foolish, and worse. Comments like “I wouldn’t trust that guy around my dog with the amount of hormones flowing through him”. A distrust of sex way past any reasonableness to a pathological extreme.

So on that forum, with those guys, you aren’t even men going your own way. You are men disgusted by and afraid of and averse to ANYONE having sex. Never mind just guys minding their own business and doing their own thing.

And it’s one thing to enjoy occasional companionship, and quite another to enjoy intimate sexual bonding. The two types of relationship are not two types of the same thing – they are in different categories. Both sexual and non-sexual share some attributes, and relations to kids can be very bonded, but sexual relationships give unique challenges and rewards. If it’s not true for you that you have relationship avoidance, is it fair to say you have sexual-relationship avoidance?

Maybe you are different than most of the posters in that thread, but I don’t hear a take it or leave it attitude at all. I hear a “everyone is very stupid and fucked up unless they leave it” attitude towards sex. A profound disinterest AND a profound aversion.

It’s one thing to make a calculated decision to avoid risk. Women can be dangerous. But it’s quite another to have an intense negative reaction to people showing a safe and effective and pleasurable way to avoid most of the risk of dealing with women, while enjoying their rewards. And it’s another thing again to deny that there even are any rewards. But your crowd does more than just deny the possibility of successfully navigating the minefield of difficulties with women and living a more rewarded life, you go several steps further, and express that the very attempt is stupid and yes, pathological. You think it’s sick to even try.

Do you agree that if test levels were taken that most of the posters would likely score EXTREMELY low? Do you agree that the average discourse on that thread is vulgar and immature and trollish? That most comments show a feminine emotional thinking style?

Honestly, judging by those comments, I don’t see a bunch of guys making a personal lifestyle choice. I see a bunch of guys with something wrong with them. Wrong not just sexually, but in attitude and emotions and clarity of thinking. It reads like little girls are chatting in there. It is frankly shocking.

And while you may have been there and done that, the general tone of the comments is a complete lack of empathy with the human sexual condition. As if guys there are pre-pubescent. You guys are shocked and amazed that men would have and want love and sex with women. If that is not broken it is at the minimum a sign of being sexually developmentally impaired.

And the fact that the attitude there is that it is inconceivable to successfully date women is again a sign of social ineptness. But not just an internal ineptness, an ineptness that you project out to the entire of humanity.

And would you agree with the conclusion that I take away from the fact that many posters there find deliberate male dominance in relationship to be off-putting to be sign that the posters there are clueless about innate female/male sexual and social dynamics? Social retards, in other words?

And as none of the posters there have rebutted a single one of my points, nor even acknowledged any of them, but have instead universally responded with snark and eye rolling and ad hominem, I would not expect an answer to any of my questions here. There is an apparent inability to think with a direct, masculine, logical style by you guys.

Update: Credit to Mr. Wombat, who made this honest and introspective comment on the forum:

xsplat: I’d be very interested in seeing photos of the members. I imagine them a bit pudgy and man breasted, lacking in any signs of testosterone, and I imagine the friends they surround themselves with to be similar.

MrWombat: Meh – guilty. Maybe he’s right, which raises a whole host of other questions. What is life about, if it’s nothing but which chemicals happen to be running through your brain?