Random Xpat Rantings

Contemplative dominance for the modern man

MGTOW smackdown, part 4

Posted by xsplat on November 9, 2012

Mike ash wrote a thoughtful reply to the discussion sparked by this thread on the MGTOW forum.

I’m dragging my reply out from the comments section of MGTOW part 2, as this is my first introduction to western grass eaters; I never knew that people like this existed. This isn’t just a movement or a philosophy or approach to women, this is, apparently, also a body type and mental type of human. A group of guys with a similar psycho-somatic gestalt. The pudgy low testosterone grass eaters who advocate to others to avoid sex.

xsplat: “The MGTOW crowd seem to have intimacy avoidance issues, and view normal human emotions and psychological requirements as pathological.”

Mike: You do realize there is more to intimacy than sex, right? One size does not fit all. What works great for you, works because it’s what is important to you.

I have been married, had long term relationships, short term relationships, and am a father to a great daughter. I understand the attraction, and people feeling like they need to “have someone in their life”. What I also realize, is that intimacy and relationships are not dependent on sex. I love having dinner with my parents, catching up on what they’ve been up to. I love planning an afternoon to catch up with my daughter who is busy with work and college. I love going on day long motorcycle rides with friends, followed by dinner and great conversation until the wee hours of the morning. You see, I experience “normal human emotions and psychological requirements” too.

Lack of sex has nothing to do with lack or avoidance of intimacy. My most fulfilling roles in life and relationships have nothing to do with my libido.

I wasn’t commenting on the very notion of mgtow, I was commenting on the specific comments on that thread in the mgtow forum and what they imply about the commentors there. In those comments many expressed the idea that other people having sex was foolish, and worse. Comments like “I wouldn’t trust that guy around my dog with the amount of hormones flowing through him”. A distrust of sex way past any reasonableness to a pathological extreme.

So on that forum, with those guys, you aren’t even men going your own way. You are men disgusted by and afraid of and averse to ANYONE having sex. Never mind just guys minding their own business and doing their own thing.

And it’s one thing to enjoy occasional companionship, and quite another to enjoy intimate sexual bonding. The two types of relationship are not two types of the same thing – they are in different categories. Both sexual and non-sexual share some attributes, and relations to kids can be very bonded, but sexual relationships give unique challenges and rewards. If it’s not true for you that you have relationship avoidance, is it fair to say you have sexual-relationship avoidance?

Maybe you are different than most of the posters in that thread, but I don’t hear a take it or leave it attitude at all. I hear a “everyone is very stupid and fucked up unless they leave it” attitude towards sex. A profound disinterest AND a profound aversion.

It’s one thing to make a calculated decision to avoid risk. Women can be dangerous. But it’s quite another to have an intense negative reaction to people showing a safe and effective and pleasurable way to avoid most of the risk of dealing with women, while enjoying their rewards. And it’s another thing again to deny that there even are any rewards. But your crowd does more than just deny the possibility of successfully navigating the minefield of difficulties with women and living a more rewarded life, you go several steps further, and express that the very attempt is stupid and yes, pathological. You think it’s sick to even try.

Do you agree that if test levels were taken that most of the posters would likely score EXTREMELY low? Do you agree that the average discourse on that thread is vulgar and immature and trollish? That most comments show a feminine emotional thinking style?

Honestly, judging by those comments, I don’t see a bunch of guys making a personal lifestyle choice. I see a bunch of guys with something wrong with them. Wrong not just sexually, but in attitude and emotions and clarity of thinking. It reads like little girls are chatting in there. It is frankly shocking.

And while you may have been there and done that, the general tone of the comments is a complete lack of empathy with the human sexual condition. As if guys there are pre-pubescent. You guys are shocked and amazed that men would have and want love and sex with women. If that is not broken it is at the minimum a sign of being sexually developmentally impaired.

And the fact that the attitude there is that it is inconceivable to successfully date women is again a sign of social ineptness. But not just an internal ineptness, an ineptness that you project out to the entire of humanity.

And would you agree with the conclusion that I take away from the fact that many posters there find deliberate male dominance in relationship to be off-putting to be sign that the posters there are clueless about innate female/male sexual and social dynamics? Social retards, in other words?

And as none of the posters there have rebutted a single one of my points, nor even acknowledged any of them, but have instead universally responded with snark and eye rolling and ad hominem, I would not expect an answer to any of my questions here. There is an apparent inability to think with a direct, masculine, logical style by you guys.

Update: Credit to Mr. Wombat, who made this honest and introspective comment on the forum:

xsplat: I’d be very interested in seeing photos of the members. I imagine them a bit pudgy and man breasted, lacking in any signs of testosterone, and I imagine the friends they surround themselves with to be similar.

MrWombat: Meh – guilty. Maybe he’s right, which raises a whole host of other questions. What is life about, if it’s nothing but which chemicals happen to be running through your brain?

14 Responses to “MGTOW smackdown, part 4”

  1. A feminine style of argument? That would be – ooh, name-calling, shaming language, yes? Blanket statements that are not backed up? Arguing by bellyfeel? Taking issues with what you perceive someone’s ‘tude to be? I find quite a bit of that in your own responses. This latest post of yours seem to me to be fairly content-free.

    “Do you agree that if test levels were taken that most of the posters would likely score EXTREMELY low?” – this is your idea of argument? Asking people to speculate on the results of a medical test?

    Why not specifically quote something you disagree with, and why you disagree with it. Why not start here: http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/deadbeat-dads-fathers-rights/510-dont-date-single-moms.html . What do you think about the conclusions in that thread?

    • xsplat said

      The speculation of testosterone levels of course has to do with the low sex drive mentioned by the commentors. I don’t know how you would not have put two and two together there. Every “name-calling shaming language and blanket statement” was backed up by reasons for it, some of which were mentioned. For instance for the feminine thinking style, that’s not based on my bellyfeel, it’s based on contentless comments that have the attitude of pure snark. Such as the comment where he quotes me at length and then says something like “too rich to comment!”

      Now to you that might be too big a stretch to conclude a feminized mind, but in my experience seeing so many similar comments together is enough to make my Dr. House diagnosis. The diagnosis is that as a group, you guys lacked testosterone in the womb, and wound up with feminized, emotive thinking brains.

      My conclusion is not based on bellythink, but on years of social experience. There is a dramatic difference in how men and women think. With some training you can learn to spot the differences habitually.

      Some men in any group, even top PUAs will have a feminine thinking style. You work with what you’ve got.

      But when an entire group has it to an extreme, that’s worth mentioning. It’s striking.

      I know I’m the first to point it out to you guys, but I wonder if I’ll be the last. There are plenty of other men who are also psychologically skilled who can notice these different thinking habits who could take one look at that comment thread and come to the same diagnosis. I know that because bloggers and commentors on manosphere blogs and forums regularly pin-point what these feminine habits are; we are quite aware of them, and will even point them out to each other in our discussions to each other.

      Perhaps the idea is new to you, and so you consider it phrenology; a quack science. The catch 22 is that women with feminine thinking styles lack the capacity to see the limits of their style. Their minds have an inner hampster, running around on a wheel, forever spinning up rationalizations for what they believe to be true. For istance the rationalization that since everyone else has a hampster, their hampster is a good hampster, and not really a hampster at all. Projection, deflection, and more deflection are the ways of the hampster. Women can be downright pre-rational at the times when their agenda is under threat, incapable of a broad perspective view that holds all the facts together in a cohesive big picture. An integral broad vision is completely beyond them.

      Of course that’s a generality. The saying goes that the women who don’t have feminine brains tend to not be feminine, and therefore not attractive.

      So my conclusions are based on the evidence. The thinking and communicating style evidenced by the comments on the mgtow forum jump out of the page as strikingly feminine. Our current scientific understanding is that brains become influenced by hormones during development, especially in the womb, to take on masculine and feminine characteristics. We do know that when the hormones lean away from testosterone and towards estrogen that you wind up with a brain that will exhibit feminine thinking styles.

      • Ok, well lets go back to the beginning. The original link was about your sexperience on low T, your g/f becoming an annoyance. I think you mentioned elsewhere on your pages that your life was like what we speculate the MGTOWers to be, back when you had low T.
        If that’s right, if your judgement that relationships are worth it, and the MGTOWers judgment that they aren’t is purely a function of how much of some particular chemical is in your brain, then no-one is right or wrong, right?
        Or the MGTOWers, lacking enough T to deal with women without getting badly burned, are right that it’s the right thing *for them* to avoid relationships.
        I suppose your points boil down to two things:
        1) Guys, a better life is possible. Get tested for low T and see your doctor; and
        2) your style of arguing (“argument by eye-rolling”) is not doing you any favours.

      • xsplat said

        I suppose your points boil down to two things:
        1) Guys, a better life is possible. Get tested for low T and see your doctor; and
        2) your style of arguing (“argument by eye-rolling”) is not doing you any favours.

        Yes. That, and having satisfying relations with women requires hard won skills, and it’s only when these skills are developed that the rewards become apparent.

    • xsplat said

      I’m reading the article you linked to now: http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/deadbeat-dads-fathers-rights/510-dont-date-single-moms.html . So far it looks insightful and well written, but I’m suspecting it won’t include using married mans game to improve the situation.

      Ok, just finished it. That sounds like solid and insightful observations on dealing with a single mom and her children.


      It comes from a view of either taking on the woman on her terms, or avoiding her altogether. Nowhere are other options explored, such as using the mom as a fuck buddy or a fling. Nor is the possibility of maintaining indefinitely the initial attraction stage where she is working hard for the mans attention discussed. Or of being close with her for just a few years before discarding her for the next woman.

      So the article goes about half way. It points out all the problems with single mothers, but makes no effort after that to find workable solutions for how to adapt and deal and work around obstacles to come to a way to use that resource.

      Single moms can be great for a year or so. Especially when they have relatives to take care of the kids.

      A male centric point of view is essential to integrating women into our lives, I agree whole-heartedly. So with that in mind, let’s not conclude that we have to either deal with women on their terms or not at all. It’s also possible to get them into our worlds on our own terms. Possible, but difficult, and the difficulty requires a much higher level of skill than most men have. Pretty well all of us require years and years of practice and training to be able to have women on our own terms.

      But then the rules totally change. It’s no longer a matter of just avoiding single moms. It’s a matter of how to use them.

      The article points out the common traps of how women use us. Next we need an article that points out common traps we can lay for single mothers in order to use them.

  2. Dillon said

    I don’t think MGTOW avoid intimacy. They simply cannot find intimacy on the terms they are looking for so they have given up. (So have many women). One cannot go on strike if one isn’t even employed. Involuntary MGTOW is actually men sent their own way.

    Unfortunate really.

    • xsplat said

      I just woke up from a dream, in which I was dealing with my BPD ex-wife, only now as a more mature man with more psychological capability to deal with a nutbar like that while still maintaining hand and not getting flustered.

      My young self would have been best advised to GMOW and avoid her, as she was a bad risk/reward.

      And on waking I reflected on how dealing with women in general can be like that. The learning curve is steep. We learn by mistakes, as well as successes, and the mistakes can be painful and costly. Becoming a person who can maintain hand and enjoy dealing with women is a process that includes a lot of getting fucked over. And the process is never complete.

      I like the approach of the PUAs. They define a problem, break it down into manageable parts, and then address each part one by one to find a workable solution. Whereas I can understand that sometimes we are not in a mental, emotional, or financial position deal with women, who are all at least a little bit BPD, at the very least I see no reason why a person who is better off avoiding them won’t just set them aside for now with the thought that when they are older and more all around capable they might be up to the task. Or if not that realize that some OTHER men are up to the task.

      But the MGTOW crowd there band together into a support group and re-enforce each others beliefs as a religion. That these beliefs are grounded in facts only solidifies them as set in concrete rigid, and prevents them from looking for a workaround and adapting successfully.

      Anyone who has read much of my blog will see many themes that MGTOW crowd talk about brought up. Only here I approach it not from a “don’t women suck, let’s avoid them” position, but from a “here are my experiences, and here’s how I found I could deal with it” approach. For every insurmountable problem the MGTOW found, I found a workable solution.

      But that confounds and irritates them, to the point where they become apoplectic. There are no solutions! Only MGTOW is a solution! The first, last, final and only real solution!

      It’s religious.

      And also it’s a solution from the point of view of my young self in that dream; an incompetent self, not yet wise enough in the ways of the world and experienced enough to be able to deal with manipulative women while maintaiining the upper hand and composure.

      My ex drove me to have a nervous breakdown. I wasn’t capable against her. Whereas nowadays I’d never let myself be drawn into that level of bullshit to begin with. Instead of getting drawn into her dramas I’d treat her like a child, only with much more skill than your average parent. My current self has a whole different set of powertools for dealing with manipulative psycho chicks. And yes, one of those tools is simply avoiding them.

      But how did I get to this point of greater facility? They didn’t teach this stuff in my high school. “Maintaining hand over a BPD, 551”. I had to learn the hard way, through trial and effort, consulting a community of peers and sharing experiences and tips, and using that newly organized information to try again. And again. And through time and experience and many failures learn how to deal with women.

      It’s a very, very complicated challenge. Not to be underestimated! A challenge worthy of the brightest and most socially capable among us. Women are masters at manipulating and controlling men. But after time, the capable man can turn the tables and out puppet the puppet master. Even while loving and fucking them.

      Can you imagine that? Using your own emotions of feeling loving and bonding IN ORDER to at the same time manipulate another girls feelings? That’s some pretty high level stuff, right? You’d need extremely fine level emotional control and a strong sense of personal boundaries to not lose at that game! What king of life experiences would a man have to go through to be able to learn to do that? To be able to approach emotions as if he were crafting and singing a song – with both detachment and embodied involvement at the same time?

      Most men have never even considered the possibility of using their own emotions as a tool. They think emotions are what happens to them. Or that emotions are problematic and to be avoided. Instead we can harness them and play songs with them, and use those songs to manipulate the emotions of those around us. Fall a little bit in love so that others around us fall head over heels.

      I realize that nowadays most guys feel that outright manipulation is somehow sick; that it’s not something they want to do. They don’t WANT to have hand in a relationship! They just want to be themselves and be accepted for who they are.

      That’s of course a naive and childish view. This real world is a world of unspoken social hierarchy and command. Especially when dealing with women. In order to be effective at dealing with them, there is no option but to know the rules of the game that they play by. To know how they think. They don’t think like men do – not even like men with femininized brains do. It may be painful to contemplate their sick, sick ways, however that’s the only option if one wants to have any facility at all, let alone a winning skill. You play the game by the rules available – you win at their own game of manipulation, only you take it up twelve notches to a whole new level of game that they can’t even comprehend, using all your masculine powers of integration of facts into a big colossal integrated world view to attack them on multiple fronts to manipulate them to feel anything you want them to feel, and do anything you want them to do. Including feeling devotedly in love and acting doting every day in every way.

      I don’t want to convert any MGTOWs into a different approach. But I’d be happy if some at least considered that success with women is an option for high aptitude men who take the time and attention to practice it.

  3. Andy said

    “Smackdown Part 4”. Four. This is the FOURTH post on the same gripe…

    There’s no unbending in any of it, no calming of your anger. In fact it’s getting worse, with endless paragraphs about the GENETIC superiority of your manhood over theirs. Genetic stuff makes it sound like you want to lead a lynch mob and put them thar dirty untermenschen in their grave.

    Those paragraphs are why I’m commenting, angrily, now.

    They insulted you. You showed them how wrong they were. Come on, a real man now leaves the little idiots severely alone, and sooner than this.

    And NO repeat NO, neither MRAs nor lynch mobs are defined by their DNA’s Testosterone code. Get off the bitter creep’s road to hell before you’re swamped with neo-nazi readers and nobody else.

    • xsplat said

      You don’t seem to be paying attention. It’s the hormone levels in the mothers womb that affect the brain development. DNA was not being talked about.

      Both the mothers hormonal levels and the childs after he is born are affected by environmental estrogens, as well as attitudes, social positioning, activities, and a host of other factors.

      Women even can absorb a substantial amount of testosterone through their lovers sweat when they bump bellies. A high T father who fucks the mother regularly can affect the characteristics of his child that way! True story.

      Now you can argue that how your brain develops in the womb doesn’t “define you” all you want, but the fact is indesputable. The hormonal mix is going to determine several mental attributes, one way, or the other.

      I personally find it very noteworthy that there exists a group of men whose members appear to nearly all have very feminine thinking styles. So I noted. It’s the first time I’ve come across a philosophy and a lifestyle that may have at least some of its roots in biology.

      And ya, when guys who are inept take it upon themselves to tell guys with skill that they are doing it wrong, they can expect a solid smack down. This isn’t a democracy here, and the incompetent don’t get to be “right” by banding together into a loud group of incompetents. “We all agree, therefore we know more than you!”

      Comments like I saw on that forum deserve shaming language. Honestly. Your culture over there is sick. On many forums such trollish comments would have the user banned. Its not the sentiment behind them I find immature, it’s the womanly bitchy emotional snide content-less way they are expressed. I’ve never, ever, in all my years, come across anything like it. Not from an entire group of men! It is very, very striking. Maybe on some female forums like Jezebel you’d find something similar, but from a group of men?!

      It is a shocking group of like minded, and like BRAINED people you have over there. Again, it’s not the ideas that you guys share that I’m talking about. Its the thinking styles. You might not be able to see it, but I’m telling you, it screams out from the page.

      And so of course, when you guys deign to go around telling other people that they are doing it wrong, it’s like the retard class escaping their school and marching over town with picket signs and telling adults how to run things.

      It’s the Dunning Kruger effect blown up into a horror film. You guys don’t know your place. You aren’t going your own way at all – you are telling people they are doing it wrong, irrespective of your relative levels of skill and experience.

      You’re just asking for a smack-down.

      You’re welcome.

      • Andy said

        Not DNA but “hormones in the womb”. Oh big fucking distinction, morally pure now are we? Jesus Christ man wake up and actually read what you just wrote!

        The point is we can all disgrace whatever mental structure we were born with and currently that disgrace is you.
        You won’t realise how badly you’re reasoning until your emotions have disengaged. Stop writing about it, then you’ll have less to look back on in shame.

        BTW I’ve had nothing to do with MRA forums. Why the hell would I read their stupid waffle, it’s bad enough watching respectable bloggers go off the rails.

      • xsplat said

        I don’t get it. Are you disagreeing that hormones in the womb affect brain structure? Or are you saying that such hate-facts should not be discussed?

        And the level of projection you are displaying is hilarious. You are using nothing but emotion and are arguing by eye rolling.

  4. gunnny said


    Another side of the argument is that MRAs/MGTOW whom have had some extremely henious experience with having sex with a woman ( e.g. false rape accusations, odd sexual practices, sexual assault) may develop a certain fear of those experiences,can’t thus have a very energetic opposition to such activity.

    Also, a large amount of the Red Pill crowd discover it by having nasty interactions with women, and (in my experience) take relative good,care of themselves.

  5. Wudang said

    Related to this topic you might find the articles on Japanese Herbs linked to in this post interesting.

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