Random Xpat Rantings

Contemplative dominance for the modern man

MGTOW guys are OFTEN puritans who have a fucked up relationship to enjoying a good life

Posted by xsplat on July 20, 2013

The big picture is that people want to be happy, and that the big picture is exactly this and none other than this “we have to see the bigger picture and use all our faculties to maximize pleasure for the long term.”

This means that we agree that there are many different avenues and ways that our competing internal interests find happiness and satisfaction. We want cookies, and we want to look good in the mirror. We want to be rich in cookies, and we get pleasure from sharing cookies. Therefore we need strategies to take into account all these competing interests, and find the best strategic balance. Eat not too many cookies, AND not too little cookies. In order to maximize happiness we have to also indulge in just the right amount of cookies. The desire for cookies and the enjoyment of cookies is a GOOD thing that increases life satisfaction.

We make sacrifices so that we can earn the money to pay for the cookies, just like we make sacrifices so that we can fuck. That’s nothing to do with being a dancing monkey for our desires, or a being a dancing monkey for cookies, it’s about good life strategy for leading a good fulfilling human life.

As has been mentioned, there is no cohesive MGTOW set of values, however when I make sweeping generalizations such as “MGTOWs are puritans at war with their own desires”, I do it for a reason. Regardless of what any standardized MGTOW philosophy is makes no bearing on my statement. Guys who take the view mentioned in the first sentence of my last MGTOW hit job post, the view that seeking sex is making oneself into a dancing monkey and being under the thumb of uncontrolled desires have a FUCKED UP FRAME OF REFERENCE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE ALIVE AS A HUMAN BEING. That’s pretty important. The puritan attitude of not indulging becomes an obsession with control, and all of the important values of life get turned exactly on their heads.

MGTOW guys, regardless of MGTOW philosophy, often espouse this puritan fucked up view, and are LIVING LIFE WRONG. It’s not just about seeking sex or not. It’s the very relationship to desire that is fucked up.

People who read that MGTOW article got confused as to what it was about, and I’ll remind them now; it was about the first sentence:

I’ve never really groked the MGTOW stance that working to raise SMV and be good at seduction is working to be a dancing monkey in the service of pussy.

Which brings us back to:

“But we don’t postpone eating the cookie for the sake of not eating cookies – we postpone eating it so that we can later eat more cookies.”

Some people get so used to the idea of postponing pleasure for the sake of a better future, that they start to mistake the very act of not indulging with a good life strategy, in and of itself.

That’s fucked up.

Just like postponing reward indefinitely, into some non existent afterlife is fucked up.

Back again to the fundamental principles – suffering and happiness. Without these principles there is no MEANING in life, what so ever. There is no basis for ethics. There is nothing but robotic, nihilistic calculation. Without including our subjective wellbeing, we are just atoms bouncing around, and that means nothing. Meaning means something because it matters to someone – it’s subjective. We need pleasure and pain as the basis of any philosophy.

And so there is only one conclusion. Maximizing overall pleasure and avoiding overall pain.

The fact that guys who identify as MGTOW wanted to read that blog post as being about whether or not the pursuit of sex is or is not the only avenue towards happiness points to how invested their egos are in protecting themselves from being seen as lesser beings for avoiding the pursuit of sex. Reread that first sentence if you still find yourself wanting to frame the argument that way.

I’ve never really groked the MGTOW stance that working to raise SMV and be good at seduction is working to be a dancing monkey in the service of pussy.

The point I’m making is of fundamental importance.

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13 Responses to “MGTOW guys are OFTEN puritans who have a fucked up relationship to enjoying a good life”

  1. Type 5 said

    I subscribed to your blog about a month ago particularly because I liked what you were saying about the need to be authentic in your relationships with women. In my experience, that applies to all areas of life, too.

    In these two articles, you keep saying that the point you want to make is that you’ve never “grokked” that particular viewpoint. But as I read, it seems that the point you’ve actually been trying to make is, “… the view that seeking sex is making oneself into a dancing monkey and being under the thumb of uncontrolled desires have a FUCKED UP FRAME OF REFERENCE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE ALIVE AS A HUMAN BEING.”

    Why not just come right out and say that in the first place?

  2. rob said

    Meh, you guys need to quit dissing MGTOW.

    It is getting kinda pathetic. The gamosphere were a bunch of pussified losers in the mid ‘oughts, with only MGTOW pushing the envelope. That ROISSY – not the rest – came about and changed it, does not make you guys morally superior. Rollo Tomassi, from So Suave, for example, spent nearly a DECADE banning anyone from So Suave that even dared mention the political implications of interacting with women. Pook kind of changed that, as did Roissy, but they are one offs. not the norm – especially in the past.

    The reason most MGTOW don’t care for gamers is gamers have spit in their face, reapeatedly, much as you are doing here merely with your title. BUT MOST OF US AGREED WITH YOU!

    Sure, some omega fucktards joined our ranks.

    Have you read some of the idiotic beliefs of those joining the gamosphere lately? They are as cock in hand masturbation ready as the rejects of MGTOW were 7 years ago.

    Don’t pat yourselves on the back too quickly by denigrating MGTOW as dickless losers who can’t get laid. The MOST prominent member of MGTOW has said he slept with 83 women before deciding they weren’t worth the fucking hassle. This is in contrast to gamosphere morons trying to say Freedom 25 is a MGTOW blog because he is a newbie trying to fuck 25 women before he is 30 or something. Fuck dude! Most of us MGTOW guys DID THAT, and that’s why we get “the game.”

    I’m really tired of MGTOW being every moron’s bitch boy.

    What would you think if I attacked your beliefs – based on erroneous lies – in the same way?

    You would tell me to fuck off pretty quickly, wouldn’t you?

    • rob said

      Btw, that about Rollo is true – the gamosphere (So Suave) used to link to commenters regularly from MGTOW. But, if the MGTOW crowd ever showed up at So Sauve, Rollo banned them almost instantly.

      MGTOW are not bitter losers to the Gameosphere. We are pissed off that so many in the game-o-sphere pissed right in our face, while calling us losers. and now they are adopting almost the identical position they ACTIVELY prevented us from talking about in the past.

      Gee, you think that doesn’t sit well with MGTOW?

      Did you really think we were a bunch of morons “who just didn’t understand?”

      Rollo’s entire blog is now about issues he banned us for!

    • rob said

      If you guys really need an education on MGTOW, there is none better than Rollo Tomassi and Roissy.

      Before Roissy split away from So Suave, he was, by default, Rollo’s little bitch boy. He had to do and say as Rollo believed, or he would be silenced.

      Roissy (and Pook), eventually said, “Fuck that” and started speaking on their own.

      And look how their success has DWARFED the So Sauve forum! Who reads that place anymore? Even Rollo realizes he doesn’t have as much power there anymore, and so has switched to blogging – where he must be a little more restrained.

      Pook, btw, had been speaking to us MGTOW for fucking AGES, and is in no way a regular from So Suave – he recognized very early the need to leave that place, and his influence spread.

      Roissy as well, spent YEARS at So Suave, and didn’t gain influence until he told them to fuck off. I notice now that Rollo plays bitch to Roissy’s opinions – what a switch, eh?

      Don’t always give the game-o-sphere a pass.

      Further, even today, guys like Rollo could not resist sticking their tongue as far up that Hooking up Smart hussies ass! Rollo’s got some brown substance on his tongue, and even now, after you would think he learned his fucking lesson, he is begging to stick his tongue up Sunshine Mary’s ass to get some more!

      That is NOT game-o-sympathetiic!

      I’m really tired of the manosphere’s whining about MGTOW while not looking at the splinter in their own eye!

  3. jez said

    It occurs to me that the Buddha would have been unable to agree with you. His view — worked out a year or two before MGTOWers came along, and as a result of rather deeper thinking than you show us here, if I may say so — is that desire is the root of all suffering.

    • rob said

      And might I say that your mischaracterization of MGTOW is also a little tiring. The Buddha would tell you to fuck off so he could have a rest.

      If you want to read more about the Buddha and his views on women, you can search my blog. But I’ll tell you right out, you little prick, you won’t find him agreeing with your views! He says dumb shits that deny reality will suffer. And, I think he is right!

    • rob said

      What a well articulated reply!

      Wow! You really shut me down, you big gam-o-hardon.

      Good for you!

      • rob said

        I’ve seen this game-o-moron response more than once – on Roissy’s forum, if you don’t agree with him and quote some Schopenhauer or Nietzche, all the clown-holios will screech “But who is Nietzche compared to Roissy???”

        Seriously, it has happened to me before using Weininger!

        Good Grief, when multitudes of little boys believe what they want in order to wet their dicks…. and ignore the greats???

    • xsplat said

      If you’ve read this blog you might know of my long history as a hard core meditating Buddhist. It’s unlikely that you’ve studied or practiced more deeply than I.

      And yet I disagree that desire is the root of suffering, and I disagree that the elimination of desire is either worthwhile or possible.

      As do many Buddhists, especially Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhists. But I’m not even concerned what any Buddhists believe, and your appeal to authority means nothing to me. What I say is true, regardless of what Buddha or anyone else said.

      There is no Mount Meru in the center of the flat earth either, as much as Buddhist tradition insists that there is.

      And much in the Bible is flat our wrong.

      If that’s arrogance then viva arrogance.

  4. xsplat said

    Rob, I respect the entirety of your blog, and have mentioned that a few times here. It’s why I link to it. I understand that you basically coined the MGTOW term, and as I recall you’ve also mentioned that you’ve pulled away from association with that crowd as the term is getting away from you in what you originally had in mind for it.

    I’m not attacking any of the beliefs that I’ve heard you talk about.

    I also attack some core beliefs that some in the PUA crowd hold on to.

    Maybe I need to be even more clear that I’m not attacking the general espoused MGTOW philosophies, but some general widespread attitudes among many MGTOWs? I did my best to be as clear as possible this time, repeating and repeating:

    I’ve never really groked the MGTOW stance that working to raise SMV and be good at seduction is working to be a dancing monkey in the service of pussy.

    I hope this clarifies that I’m not anti MGTOW philosphy, but am anti some particular attitudes that are not necessary to the MGTOW philosophy, but that I’ve seen many times in people who identify as MGTOW.

  5. xsplat said

    Also Rob, the term MGTOW has taken on a life of its own, and many of the crowd who identifies with that term say some really fucked up shit.

    As I’ve said several times here, I’m not criticizing your original vision or anything you write when I critisize MGTOWers. I can imagine it must be frustrating to see your baby and all your good work maligned, but I’m not talking about your baby and all your good work. I’m talking about the idiotic ideas of the idiots. Those idiots consider themselves MGTOW. Taken as a whole group, those who identify as MGTOW are largely fucked up guys who say fucked up shit, regardless of how good your ideas are.

    So it’s really out of your hands. MGTOW means things you don’t want it to mean, and so is open to harsh criticism.

  6. fedrz said

    Yeah, I know, Xplat.

    That’s not to say I am not irritated by the situation.

    I was being an ass the last time I posted here. I was pissed off. I put so much effort into MGTOW, and it’s spinning off the rails in a way it was never intended.

    The origin of MGTOW was never really far off from game – it was merely older guys who had some inkling of game that they knew from experience, and now had grown older, and the politics of the situation entered into it.

    I am not a big fan of MGTOW in its current form. In fact, the entire reason I tried to write “The Philosophy of MGTOW” was because of my disgust with the way it turned out, and it was my attempt to pull our asses out of the fire.

    I don’t think it worked.

    My apologies for being a jerk.

    On some level, I am severely ticked off that all of our past efforts have turned into this. I put a lot of years into it – seven, to be exact, but, it must be getting about time that I admit it was a failure.

    I hope the game-o-sphere doesn’t drop the ball the way we did.

    • fedrz said

      You know what really, really pisses me off with MGTOW in its modern form?

      We’ve become pussies.

      The MGTOW that I started up with backed down from no-one. We despised people who wielded the ban-hammer, and mocked them relentlessly for their intellectual dishonesty. That was one of our biggest strengths back then. We defended ourselves against all comers.

      I am serious.

      I once had a flame war going on with a forum that pissed me off, and made a post on my blog about it… after six months of vicious fighting, when things died down, I deleted the post – it just drew too much heat… and you know what? Another MGTOW called me out on it for censorship! That was a HUGE no-no back then. We faced everyone head on.

      Now, it is a bunch of Amanda Marcottes wrapped in MGTOW flag.

      The most prolific MGTOW forum banned me for poking fun of Bumblegate and AVFM calling us a cult (after only six posts), because I agreed, that we all meet at the Bohemian Grove and jerked off in front of eachother to images of goats like Bush and Kerry at Skull and Bones… and the asshole banned me. WTF? Last I seen, he banned another guy for saying England instead of UK… and still, I see longtime MGTOW supporting this fucktard of a potato chip running this forum. It really pisses me off – especially the old guys – because they fucking well know that is absolutely against MGTOW etiquette, and yet, they are calling this site the BEST ever! Fuck off. They all know that the guys who actually put in the effort to launch this movement would have banned Potato Chip from all of their blogs and removed him from their sidebar the INSTANT he pulled that shit. That was like MGTOW rule #1. Pandagone is not even that fucking ridiculous. That forum would have been vacuuming breadcrumbs from behind the bed if they pulled that, yet… it is getting supported.

      Now Paul Elam is trying to co-opt the fucking movement, and succeeding, while MGTOW’s are saying “let him” because it lets us talk without being bothered. Geez! Great, you assholes. Thanks to all the people before you who fought like dogs to make sure that didn’t happen. .

      Fuck them all.

      My “book” has one or two more articles to be written, and then I am done. This isn’t what I signed up for. I didn’t do it for others… I did it because I needed to know the answer.

      I now know the answer… and it’s made me a misanthrope, lol!

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