Random Xpat Rantings

Contemplative dominance for the modern man

MGTOWs are puritans at war with their own desires

Posted by xsplat on July 18, 2013

I’ve never really groked the MGTOW stance that working to raise SMV and be good at seduction is working to be a dancing monkey in the service of pussy. I figure the guys who espouse that meme either have very low libido and so can not understand how men are motivated by a desire to fuck, or dislike their inner desires; they wish they didn’t wish to fuck.

I want sex therefore I do what is required to get sex. Does that mean that I am dancing monkey for pussy? That I am a dancing monkey for my own desires? Or does it mean that *I* know what *I* want, and I go after it, directly, with no excuses. Without neurotic complaint or double think – just directly go after what I actually want, pragmatically. And enjoy doing it, and feel better for the process and the result.

How many bifurcations and segments do you want to divide your “self” into? Me vs “my” body. Me vs id, superego and ego. Me vs my sex drive. Why not just have me? A holistic integral self? Why the need for all these divisions? Own it. Yes, you want to get fucked, and yes, there are risks and costs and rewards for doing so – it’s an imperfect world and some part of your “self” will have to be compromised so that another part gets it’s flavor of satisfaction.

Try to figure that out – comment here if it will help you. You ARE your desires. You are not at war with them. All of you is you. ALL of it – all the contradictory mess – it’s all you. Desire is as good as it gets, just like satiation is as good as it gets, just like fun is as good as it gets. Being human isn’t a struggle against being human. It’s a balancing act of competing internal and external interests, and desire is a good interest, and is good and valuable in and of itself – it is to be celebrated as much as a great guitar lick or a sunset or a warm embrace or an early morning stroll in the park. Desire and everything involved in fulfilling desire is good – as good as it gets. It’s you. It’s not you vs desire.

You can stroke your ego and that’s GOOD. You can transcend your ego and that’s another type of good. You can get laid and that’s good. You can go skiing or live as a beach bum and that’s good. But it’s not good to be puritanical about sex and deny it as something that makes us slaves to our desires. It has cost/benefits, like anything else. If you set it up well, the benefits greatly outweigh the costs, and BOTH your desire and the satisfying of the desires are good. Desire is not bad. It’s not you vs your desire. Own it – you ARE your desire. That’s you.

Update: Enjoying life as best as possible is the highest possible philosophical and ethical position. The buck has to stop somewhere – it must stop at the individual in his lifetime – otherwise he is just teaching everyone around him by example to NOT enjoy life, which is unethical and a boring drag and a waste of precious human birth.

Not causing suffering to others is considered ethical, but that doesn’t go as far as it can. Alleviating suffering in others is considered even more ethical. But that’s not going far enough. Promoting pleasure in oneself and others is yet more ethical.

Or if enjoyment is not your fundamental principle of life, what is? Raising GDP?

Yes, we have to see the bigger picture and use all our faculties to maximize pleasure for the long term. But we don’t postpone eating the cookie for the sake of not eating cookies – we postpone eating it so that we can later eat more cookies.

Life is about eating cookies, not postponement. It’s about maximizing our position to sustainably enjoy as much pleasure as possible.

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25 Responses to “MGTOWs are puritans at war with their own desires”

  1. John said

    Men are built differently. For instance, I have high libido, but it doesn’t really influence my decision making that much. My rational level has domain almost exclusively whilst I’m sober. I’ve turned down sex a number of times while actually wanting to have it in the moment because it wasn’t in my best interest. I see the point you’re trying to make, but rationalizing desire is not an argument I would ever make on any level. It’s perfectly fine to be puritanical about sex. I’ve purposefully done it many times. You’re just rationalizing your own inability to control yourself. Of course it’s your desire vs. you. They’re both you, but we all have internal conflict.

    • xsplat said

      You deliberately fail to make any distinction between “inability to control yourself” and “knowing what I want and deliberately going after it”. That’s called hampsterbation, and is a type of willful ignorance.

      Are you an anhedonic drone in all aspects of your life, or just sexually? Do you deliberately enjoy ANYTHING?

      Enjoying life as best as possible is the highest possible philosophical and ethical position. The buck has to stop somewhere – it must stop at the individual in his lifetime – otherwise he is just teaching everyone around him by example to NOT enjoy life, which is unethical and a boring drag and a waste of precious human birth.

      Not causing suffering to others is considered ethical, but that doesn’t go as far as it can. Alleviating suffering in others is considered even more ethical. But that’s not going far enough. Promoting pleasure in oneself and others is yet more ethical.

      Or if enjoyment is not your fundamental principle of life, what is? Raising GDP?

      Yes, we have to see the bigger picture and use all our faculties to maximize pleasure for the long term. If you re-read the post you’d see that strongly implied. But we don’t postpone eating the cookie for the sake of not eating cookies – we postpone eating it so that we can later eat more cookies.

      Life is about eating cookies, not postponement. It’s about maximizing our position to sustainably enjoy as much pleasure as possible.

      • John said

        You said it all, my friend. Fuck and eat cookies all you want. The fundamental principle in life for me is freedom. Women have a knack for limiting freedom. That’s why I keep them as a very minor portion in my life. Physical pleasures just don’t do it enough for me.

        Your own hampsterbation is what you should be concerned with. You’ve accepted the demands of your body as the basis of life and then used your own neglected intellect to create a philosophy to maximize your limited view of life. What if your dick falls off tomorrow and you can’t taste cookies? What are you going to do when you get older and fucking ain’t happening? Good luck.

      • xsplat said

        So your logic is that fucking is a pleasure that is exclusive of other pleasures.

        Got it. My mental life MUST be lacking, and IS lacking, because I like to fuck and do fuck.

        Mental midget lecturing me about mental life.

      • John said

        Only every major philosophy in the history of humanity talks about combatting desire. I’m gonna go stand with Socrates, Buddha, and Marcus Aurelius and not a cocksure internet blogger. Your mental life is lacking because you don’t even see your own bullshit.

  2. YouSoWould said

    MGTOW reasoning always comes across as petulant hamsterish backwards rationalisation for their inability to get women – “well, I didn’t even want them in the first place”.

    I wonder how many of these dudes would continue to “go their own way” if they were getting an endless sea of hot young pussy flung at them with no effort.

    Until you are in a position to reliably obtain women, you can’t expect anyone to take you seriously when you say you don’t want any of them.

    • John said

      Can’t someone be realistic about their SMV and just decide that the cost/benefit ratio is not good enough? Personally, I just don’t find the process of tracking down broads fun or rewarding. If they fall in my lap, so be it. I’m not going to spend much time or money on them. No man really denies the fact that they want women(you wouldn’t need to be a MGTOW, you’d just be asexual), but some men look at that in the big picture of things and see it’s not a worthwhile effort. If a MGTOW suddenly became a rock star, then obviously he’d have to reassess his situation since now the cost and effort of getting women have been seriously lowered.

      • xsplat said

        I agree with you.

        You’re right. There is no need for the attitudes that I’m arguing against at all. Your view is all that is required. There is no need to combat desire itself, or diss the very act of going after what one desires.

        You are right that we need to see the big picture of what we desire and go after it strategically, and weigh up all the cost benefits, and decide which cookies are overall helpful, and which cookies are not.

        There is no need to diss the very functioning of desire. Desire and avoidance is at the root of how our neurons and the brain works, and that’s fine. What we need is a wide mental map that is strategic.

        It’s not about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

        Women and sex and the seeking of women and sex is good.

        Glad we agree.

  3. […] xsplat.wordpress.com […]

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  5. earl said

    “Life is about eating cookies, not postponement.”

    I’ll counter with man does not live on bread alone…but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. I’ll agree that sexual desire is necessary and to fight it is to die as a person so the MGTOW are delusional…but to engage in every carnal pleasure is just as delusional and another route to death. Prudence when it comes to sexual desire is the preferred route.

    Life is about getting to Heaven…and in the process all your desires and pleasures are taken care of.

    • xsplat said

      So your position is that life is about the afterlife.

      Uh huh.

      How’s that working out for you, in this life?

      Jeesus, talk about taking the long view – that’s fucking insane. People who believe in postponing pleasure for the sake of pleasure after this life are clinically insane. Just because you name your delusions religious doesn’t make them any less delusional.

      • earl said

        “How’s that working out for you, in this life?”

        Great. Peace of mind is worth more than anything worldly.

        And I never said I wasn’t insane. We all are…just different forms of insanity.

      • xsplat said

        ” Peace of mind is worth more than anything worldly.”

        Peace of mind through delusion. Can’t argue that it doesn’t work. Can argue that it’s fucking insane though.

        And ultimately not the best option. The reality based options just take more mental effort, and some dealing with the stages of grief. Facing true mortality is a grown up endeavor, and is necessarily painful. But like most of what is mature, it is more effective and emotionally encompassing. Yes, humans are built to want meaning, and staring into the abyss can lead to temporary depressions and psychological crisis. But that’s just part of growing up.

      • earl said

        What’s so insane about it? That you don’t agree with me? Well if I am right…I lose nothing and if you are right I lose it all.

        Did you not see that I was agreeing with you about trying to tame or not own sexual desire is unnatural? There is probably little difference between how you view the world and how I view it.

        I happen to think the reality based world is a form of what Heaven is like…granted the broken down and broken parted version.

        And I am far from a prude, the prudes do a lot to destroy as well…I happen to think everything relates back to sex for women and violence for men.

  6. Hmmmmmm……….MGTOW are puritans at war with our own desires. The level of herp-derp in that statement is extensive. It seeks to apply a collective stroke to all that identify themselves as MGTOW. However, MGTOW is not a core principle like you make it out to be here………avoiding sex. There are those who routinely obtain sex, but they know the cost of long term relationships. There are those who know that one piece of ass is too much, and 1,000 is never enough….like an alcoholic or drug addict.

    I, as an MGTOW, do seek out sex. However, I don’t let it govern me like some guys do. Some men believe that the be all end all to life is how many canals they can slip their pathetic little peckers in….and that’s just absurd.

    “How many bifurcations and segments do you want to divide your “self” into? Me vs “my” body. Me vs id, superego and ego. Me vs my sex drive. Why not just have me? A holistic integral self? Why the need for all these divisions? Own it. Yes, you want to get fucked, and yes, there are risks and costs and rewards for doing so – it’s an imperfect world and some part of your “self” will have to be compromised so that another part gets it’s flavor of satisfaction.”

    Yes I want sex. Yes I know there are risks and costs and rewards for getting it. But, in my mind, there is no reason to put a ring on that shit and that is a core belief held by many that identify as MGTOW. I like sex….but I don’t have to have it as much as you or others like you do, and that doesn’t make me a puritan at war with my own desires no more than it makes you an informed, intellectual blogger.

  7. Snoeperd said

    Just wanted to tell you xsplat that the article sounds true to me. It reminds me of the debating style of feminists; focusing on an issue where they could be exploited by men / women to the detriment of all pleasures that could be obtained. It’s a fearbased ideology which doesnt seem like a good way to lead your life.

    I can definitely understand male anger at female’s higher tendency for duplicity, but thats just the nerd in me annoyed by the concept of paying lipserivce to something while doing something entirely different

    keep up the good work you fat bastard (no homo)

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  9. jameszed said

    The logic is very weak – “Essentially, xsplat is measuring the world and uses his choices as the yardstick. Anyone who chooses differently is pathological at some level. This is flawed reasoning at its worse.

    Now, I am not a MGTOW, but most of the time, I don’t think that “what is required” it is worth it.”

    http://jameszed.wordpress.com/2013/07/20/mgtow-and-the-manosphere/

    • xsplat said

      Maybe you missed the opening sentence and what this blog post is addressing: I’ve never really groked the MGTOW stance that working to raise SMV and be good at seduction is working to be a dancing monkey in the service of pussy.

      • JamesZed said

        Usually, you’re on point – not so this time.

        1. There is no room for agency in your assumptions –
        2. “You ARE your desires.” – Not so sure about that, take a quick look at history since say 90 C.E. This ties in neatly with your conception of a holistic self – again, nice in theory, but in reality everyone has competing and often irreconcilable desires.
        3. Even if that were true, you assume that the felicific calculus is the same for everyone – not so.

        Perhaps it’s better to ask: “What do MGTOW get out of it?”

      • xsplat said

        I really don’t think that you are paying attention to what I’m saying, and are assuming that we are having a different discussion.

        Did you read me saying that you have to chase pussy to be happy? If so, reread.

        Did you not notice me mentioning competing internal interests? We are on the same team on that subject.

        The big picture is that people want to be happy, and that the big picture is exactly this and none other than this “we have to see the bigger picture and use all our faculties to maximize pleasure for the long term.”

        This means that we agree that there are many different avenues and ways that our competing internal interests to find happiness and satisfaction. We want cookies, and we want to look good in the mirror. Therefore we need strategies to take into account all these competing interests, and find the best strategic balance. Eat not too many cookies, AND not too little cookies. In order to maximize happiness we have to also indulge in just the right amount of cookies. The desire for cookies and the enjoyment of cookies is a GOOD thing that increases life satisfaction. We make sacrifices so that we can earn the money to pay for the cookies, just like we make sacrifices so that we can fuck. That’s nothing to do with being a dancing monkey for our desires, it’s about good life strategy for leading a good fulfilling human life.

        As has been mentioned, there is no cohesive MGTOW set of values, however when I make sweeping generalizations such as “MGTOWs are puritans at war with their own desires”, I do it for a reason. Regardless of what any standardized MGTOW philosophy is makes no bearing on my statement. Guys who take the view mentioned in the first sentence, the view that seeking sex is making oneself into a dancing monkey and being under the thumb of uncontrolled desires have a FUCKED UP FRAME OF REFERENCE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE ALIVE AS A HUMAN BEING. That’s pretty important. The puritan attitude of not indulging becomes an obsession with control, and all of the important values of life get turned exactly on their heads.

        MGTOW guys, regardless of MGTOW philosphy, often espouse this puritan fucked up view, and are LIVING LIFE WRONG. It’s not just about seeking sex or not. It’s the very relationship to desire that is fucked up.

        Again, please remind yourself what this article is about – the first sentence.

        Which brings us back to:

        “But we don’t postpone eating the cookie for the sake of not eating cookies – we postpone eating it so that we can later eat more cookies.”

        Some people get so used to the idea of postponing pleasure for the sake of a better future, that they start to mistake the very act of not indulging with a good life strategy, in and of itself.

        That’s fucked up.

        Just like postponing reward indefinately, into some non existent afterlife is fucked up.

        Back again to the fundamental principles – suffering and happiness. Without these principles there is no MEANING in life, what so ever. There is no basis for ethics. There is nothing but robotic, nihilistic calculation. Without including our subjective wellbeing, we are just atoms bouncing around, and that means nothing. Meaning means something because it matters to someone – it’s subjective. We need pleasure and pain as the basis of any philosophy.

        And so there is only one conclusion. Maximizing overall pleasure and avoiding overall pain.

        Again – read the first sentence – what this post is about. It’s not about sex as the only means to happiness. The fact that guys who identify as MGTOW want to read it that way points to how invested their egos are in protecting themselves from being seen as lesser beings for avoiding the pursuit of sex.

        Understand what I’m saying.

        It’s important.

  10. […] MGTOWs are puritans at war with their own desires […]

  11. JamesZed said

    I see what you you’re saying, and I understand the argument you’re making. FWIW, I think you’re positively clear in making the case. I see specifically where our differences of opinion lies and I want to break it down long-form – I’ll shoot you and e-mail when that’s done. Thanks for engaging in this discussion.

  12. Steven said

    “Enjoying life as best as possible is the highest possible philosophical and ethical position.”

    So from reading your rant about desires, you essentially say that giving in to desires without a second of thought is pristine and virtuous.

    I’m pretty sure that any actual philosopher would strongly disagree with you on this one, desire cannot be “good” by default since it entirely depends on any specific desire.

    You may not want to face this reality, but there are scores of sadists who desire to torture other creatures, if you think that’s good than you’re sick and depraved.

    Just because you are indeed a slave to your own biology doesn’t mean others should be and though sexual desire is natural, so is asexuality, if we make a pill that neutralizes the chemical cocktail that makes us desire sex than that’s also ‘natural’

    From what i get from this post of yours is that you’re just trying to act alpha showing off your humongous libido, honestly i’m strongly convinced that you’re a hormonal teenager judging by the way you speak, how pathetic, some teenager thinking he’s seen the world, you just wait a few years and then recap on this and measure your libido again.

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