Random Xpat Rantings

Contemplative dominance for the modern man

MGTOW guys have intimacy avoidance issues

Posted by xsplat on November 6, 2012

I believe that some people are born with the capacity to develop an organ of perception; the perception of ideas fitting together congruently; the perception of a logical arrangement of thought. And some are not. Some people think emotionally. Women are known to “think” emotionally, and can at times be incapable of following a logical train of thought or seeing where the logical steps break down. Men also can be that way, but women tend to be that way more so and more often.

But some of us naturally and instantly notice logical inconsistencies. We wonder why others can’t see them, and so helpfully point them out.

We are never met with thanks. People not only have difficulty understanding, but it’s much worse. They actively try to not hear. They actively avoid putting together the pictures in their mind that will lead to their having a new, more logically consistent understanding.

That’s how emotional thinking works. And of course even the logical thinkers are prone to cognitive dissonance, but at least with us we have an innate value for truth as a value in and of itself, and so we can be communicated with – even if it’s at times a slow process. We’d rather take the pain of facing cognitive dissonance while adjusting to truth than not feel that pain and avoiding truth.

Sometimes lately I’m noticing myself not starting in on an argument, and not even bothering to correct peoples views, when I see that they are heavily ego invested in them. I know from long experience that when that’s the case logic won’t enter into it, and I’ll be wasting every ones time. The person with the inconsistent views will view me as attacking them, and won’t be able to even imagine alternate views, let alone take them on and integrate them into a new way of being.

I find that MGTOW (men going their own way) guys with a strong bias against intimacy and a strong bias towards being self reliant to the point of being an island onto themselves can be extremely defensive of their emotional stance, and reject the very notion of a positive and fulfilling intimacy – as if on philosophical grounds. They decry “looking for external validation”, or in any way using the people in our environment to find any sort of social or even sexual fulfillment. They deny basic human desires. They worship a LACK of libido. They find freedom in a lack of desire. They see that a less complicated life, where one doesn’t have to struggle for any externally measurable successes is more “free”, rather than seeing a successful life as more fulfilling. They value ease over satisfaction. They take the maxim “be satisfied with little” to absurd extremes, to the point where it is anti-social and anti-human. They avoid pleasures in order to avoid pain. They simplify the funs and joys and heartbreaks of life down to a muted dull grey, and call that “freedom”.

And when they come across the manosphere notion of making oneself as attractive as possible and heightening testosterone and libido and dealing with and manipulating women successfully in order to gain the many associated pleasures, they only see negatives. They CAN NOT even see, let alone remember, what it was ever like to have a woman be head over heels in love with them and treating them well, and CAN NOT comprehend that as a positive value worth striving for, in order to increase quality of life.

Someone from an MGTOW forum started a thread about my last post, 5 Days of Impotence. I was thinking to post some of the comments here and rebut, but some of the comments are distastefully hateful. And it’s the venom in them that made me realize that these guys are not just advocating a lifestyle, they are protecting one. Ego protection.

I used to live a life devoted to lowering testosterone. Yes, it does come with a lot of freedom, and has many benefits.

Now I live a life devoted to raising testosterone. That also comes with many benefits.

I’ve lived and seen both lifestyles intimately. I used to live in a Buddhist monastery, and have lived as a hermit yogi on long solitary forest meditation retreats – up to 3 months at a time. I know what it’s like to live with one meal a day and no masturbation and no entertainments. And I know what it’s like to live in meditation community centers. And to be married with a kid. And to be a travelling salesman. And to travel to new lands as an entrepreneur and have a very socially and sexually active lifestyle.

I valued the time I spent being more self sufficient. Some of it was quite happy, and it was what I wanted to do at the time. However I’d not recommend that as a permanent lifestyle choice.

For the capable man, there are much more difficult roads to navigate. Roads with more stress, and greater challenges, where pain, frustration, and heartbreak are certain. This is the path that focuses on relationships, mutual love, extremely good sex at the very top end level, fitness, financial success, sports interests, musical interests, and an assortment of hobbies that enhance a rounded out full life, including but never limited to meditative and contemplative interests.

The MGTOW crowd seem to have intimacy avoidance issues, and view normal human emotions and psychological requirements as pathological.

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45 Responses to “MGTOW guys have intimacy avoidance issues”

  1. [...] MGTOW guys have intimacy avoidance issues [...]

  2. Dom said

    Not defending the MGTOW crowd, but I have to ask: have you ever been financially (and/or emotionally) destroyed in a divorce?

    From my limited understanding of the MGTOW philosophy, it seems that their overall thought process is more based on damage control, rather than aggressive innovation.

    Innovation is the key to success, without a doubt, but after you’ve been hit pretty hard, sometimes it makes sense to simply contain the damage for a while.

    Just a thought.

    • xsplat said

      Yes, I did have a very nasty and costly divorce. Costly emotionally, as well as financially.

      The damage control is easy to understand. I can even understand opting out – especially if it’s a temporary arrangement. But the antipathy towards intimacy is a step too far. They talk as if it’s a fools errand. Their entire life philosophy is anti-social, in that they want to be entirely self sufficient.

      • Dom said

        I agree, though, that it is completely different to swallow the red pill and accordingly, than it is to simply live your life as if women don’t even exist (I don’t know if they [MGTOW] all do this, but that’s probably going a bit too far…).

        And I am sorry to hear about your divorce. If I may ask, what made you want to get married in the first place, considering your views on it? Unless, of course, your current views on marriage were formed from your first-hand experience.

      • xsplat said

        The girl got pregnant, and was from the US while I was from Canada. In order to live in the same country marriage was the only option. I never would have done that if not for those legal reasons. And after what I learned then, I would never even remain with a girl because of a baby.

        I used to partly buy into the idea that an oops baby is 1/2 the mans responsibility. I don’t think that way anymore. I’ll pay for abortifactant or abortion, and if the girl wants to keep the child against my wishes, that’s her choice, and therefore her responsibility. On the other hand, if I ever do decide to have a kid, then that’s my choice, and my responsibility. Nowadays oops babies are never accidents. I’ve had girls fake taking their pills to get pregnant, even to the extent of opening their mouths when I check and hiding it under their tongues and then going to spit it out in the toilet. Lot of pregnancies over the years. At first they often say they will keep it, but when they find out that I’m not bluffing about skipping town, then they decide against it.

        I don’t have any moral issues with abortion, as I don’t have any moral issues with killing a mouse, and I can’t see much difference between a fetus and a mouse. And if a girl has a moral issue with it, her morals seem to disappear as soon as the meal ticket does.

        I guess I’m still angry at that original trap. I was a chump.

      • Dom said

        On average, from your experience, how old have the girls been that have attempted to “accidentally” get pregnant by you?

      • xsplat said

        The 19 year old that got pregnant really did have an accident, and took care of it without prompting. Herbal abortifactant is widely available in SE Asia and is usually effective. Other girls have mostly been between 21 and 26 – the ages of girls I usually date. One was 36.

  3. There is one comment on that thread that I’d call “hateful”, and it’s been reported. MGTOWForums is pretty serious about TOS.

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  5. [...] MGTOW guys have intimacy avoidance issues « Random Xpat Rantings [...]

  6. snoeperd said

    I think it’s hard for most guys who are trying to move from a needy frame to a selfconfident frame to find out exactly how selfsufficient they should be in social situations. But i agree, running away from the stick (scared for another divorce, messey breakup etc) always makes people less happy than running towards a carrot (a new relation).

  7. Peter South said

    I think the reasons you didn’t post and rebut was pretty simple. You can’t.

    That’s something a woman would say “they said terrible terrible things which I won’t repeat…”

    Hateful? Dude you are a manipulator by your own measure.

    C’mon, where do you get off judging anyone?

    • xsplat said

      I can’t post on that forum because when I signed up a few weeks ago when another of my posts was commented on there, my request to be a member was denied.

      I’m not sure if “judging” people is exactly what I’m doing. You might want to look up attachment in adults and attachment disorder on wikipedia, and see if that resonates at all. I’d be curious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults

      It is surprising to me that there are men who choose to be asexual, as that strikes me as an anhedonic lifestyle. But the stranger thing to me is how they can’t understand how others would live differently.

      I don’t expect to convert anyones beliefs, as this is about emotional satisfaction, however I’m trying to use words to explain to the MGTOW guys why others find their lifestyle as a poor choice for hedonism.

      From the Wikipedia article:

      Secure attachment
      Securely attached people tend to agree with the following statements: “It is relatively easy for me to become emotionally close to others. I am comfortable depending on others and having others depend on me. I don’t worry about being alone or having others not accept me.” This style of attachment usually results from a history of warm and responsive interactions with relationship partners. Securely attached people tend to have positive views of themselves and their partners. They also tend to have positive views of their relationships. Often they report greater satisfaction and adjustment in their relationships than people with other attachment styles. Securely attached people feel comfortable both with intimacy and with independence. Many seek to balance intimacy and independence in their relationship.

      Dismissive–avoidant attachment

      People with a dismissive style of avoidant attachment tend to agree with these statements: “I am comfortable without close emotional relationships.”, “It is very important to me to feel independent and self-sufficient”, and “I prefer not to depend on others or have others depend on me.” People with this attachment style desire a high level of independence. The desire for independence often appears as an attempt to avoid attachment altogether. They view themselves as self-sufficient and invulnerable to feelings associated with being closely attached to others. They often deny needing close relationships. Some may even view close relationships as relatively unimportant. Not surprisingly, they seek less intimacy with relationship partners, whom they often view less positively than they view themselves. Investigators commonly note the defensive character of this attachment style. People with a dismissive–avoidant attachment style tend to suppress and hide their feelings, and they tend to deal with rejection by distancing themselves from the sources of rejection (i.e., their relationship partners).
      ———
      And by the way, most of the commentors at your forum http://www.mgtowforums.com/forums/mens-general-discussion/11725-5-days-impotence.html come across as childish trolls. The level of social discourse over there is miles below what you would see on a PUA forum, such as rooshvforum.com.

      Which leads me to believe that the lifestyle choice is not much of a choice at all. You guys are basically socially inept, and so have no clue as to how to get women to be in a stable and meaningful love relationship with you. That the commentors find the idea of male dominance being strange proves my point – you guys have no romantic clue.

      Which is fine by me. But the weird part is you can’t imagine that wanting intimacy and sex is anything other than a hindrance to a more “free” life. You simply refuse to let that image of emotional and sexual satisfaction into your head.

      While I, on the other hand, nearly became a full time monk, have lived like a monk, and have lived like a hermit.

      It’s surprising to me that no one on the forum wants to consider that the reasons they have been unable to find healthy and meaningful and positive relationships with women is because he is doing it wrong. And when a guy like me shows an alternate approach, a “red pill” approach, based on masculine dominance, you guys universally decry it.

      I’m working to help guys find pleasure, you are working to help guys avoid pain. But my way also avoids most of the pain.

      And I understand all the risks about dealing with women, and talk in detail about how to manage them. You guys just assume that any risk is worth no amount of reward. And what’s worse if you give no clue that you are even capable of perceiving what the rewards of being with loving women can even be.

      I’d be very interesting in seeing photos of the members. I imagine them a bit pudgy and man breasted, lacking in any signs of testosterone, and I imagine the friends they surround themselves with are similar. It just never occured to me that grown men would promote an asexual lifestyle, especially without a very strong meditative reason to focus 100% of all available energies to a purpose. And even then, without some community based religious reason, it strikes me as very odd. Ok – now you can say I’m judging you guys. I think something is wrong with your endocrine systems. And judging by your comments section, many of you don’t show any signs of having a testosteronized brain; you are emotional thinkers with a thinking style similar to women. Not enough testosterone since before birth, and a dramatic lack even now.

      I would bet real dollars that your average testosterone level is dramatically low, and I’d also wager your average estrogen levels are noticeably high.

      Basically, you guys talk as if you are pre-pubescent and have only the most shallow possible understanding of adult sexual relations. Socio-sexual under-development. And from that stance you claim to be in a position of giving advice to expert practitioners of sex and relationship.

      • Peter South said

        Brevity is the essence of wit…

        I would bet your estrogen levels are through the roof as nerdy and chatty as you are.

      • Zeno1 said

        You have to love yourself and be happy alone before you can be reach the level you are talking about. MGTOW is a great idea for guys who need to learn this and is like learning to live without an addiction. To put these guys down is pretty low imho.

  8. Mike Ash said

    “The MGTOW crowd seem to have intimacy avoidance issues, and view normal human emotions and psychological requirements as pathological.”

    You do realize there is more to intimacy than sex, right? One size does not fit all. What works great for you, works because it’s what is important to you.

    I have been married, had long term relationships, short term relationships, and am a father to a great daughter. I understand the attraction, and people feeling like they need to “have someone in their life”. What I also realize, is that intimacy and relationships are not dependent on sex. I love having dinner with my parents, catching up on what they’ve been up to. I love planning an afternoon to catch up with my daughter who is busy with work and college. I love going on day long motorcycle rides with friends, followed by dinner and great conversation until the wee hours of the morning. You see, I experience “normal human emotions and psychological requirements” too.

    Lack of sex has nothing to do with lack or avoidance of intimacy. My most fulfilling roles in life and relationships have nothing to do with my libido.

    • xsplat said

      I wasn’t commenting on the very notion of mgtow, I was commenting on the specific comments on that thread in the mgtow forum and what they imply about the commentors there. In those comments many expressed the idea that other people having sex was foolish, and worse. Comments like “I wouldn’t trust that guy around my dog with the amount of hormones flowing through him”. A distrust of sex way past any reasonableness to a pathological extreme.

      So on that forum, with those guys, you aren’t even men going your own way. You are men disgusted by and afraid of and averse to ANYONE having sex. Never mind just guys minding their own business and doing their own thing.

      And it’s one thing to enjoy occasional companionship, and quite another to enjoy intimate sexual bonding. The two types of relationship are not two types of the same thing – they are in different categories. Both sexual and non-sexual share some attributes, and relations to kids can be very bonded, but sexual relationships give unique challenges and rewards. If it’s not true for you that you have relationship avoidance, is it fair to say you have sexual-relationship avoidance?

      Maybe you are different than most of the posters in that thread, but I don’t hear a take it or leave it attitude at all. I hear a “everyone is very stupid and fucked up unless they leave it” attitude towards sex. A profound disinterest AND a profound aversion.

      It’s one thing to make a calculated decision to avoid risk. Women can be dangerous. But it’s quite another to have an intense negative reaction to people showing a safe and effective and pleasurable way to avoid most of the risk of dealing with women, while enjoying their rewards. And it’s another thing again to deny that there even are any rewards. But your crowd does more than just deny the possibility of successfully navigating the minefield of difficulties with women and living a more rewarded life, you go several steps further, and express that the very attempt is stupid and yes, pathological. You think it’s sick to even try.

      Do you agree that if test levels were taken that most of the posters would likely score EXTREMELY low? Do you agree that the average discourse on that thread is vulgar and immature and trollish? That most comments show a feminine emotional thinking style?

      Honestly, judging by those comments, I don’t see a bunch of guys making a personal lifestyle choice. I see a bunch of guys with something wrong with them. Wrong not just sexually, but in attitude and emotions and clarity of thinking. It reads like little girls are chatting in there. It is frankly shocking.

      And while you may have been there and done that, the general tone of the comments is a complete lack of empathy with the human sexual condition. As if guys there are pre-pubescent. You guys are shocked and amazed that men would have and want love and sex with women. If that is not broken it is at the minimum a sign of being sexually developmentally impaired.

      And the fact that the attitude there is that it is inconceivable to successfully date women is again a sign of social ineptness. But not just an internal ineptness, an ineptness that you project out to the entire of humanity.

      And would you agree with the conclusion that I take away from the fact that many posters there find deliberate male dominance in relationship to be off-putting to be sign that the posters there are clueless about innate female/male sexual and social dynamics? Social retards, in other words?

      And as none of the posters there have rebutted a single one of my points, nor even acknowledged any of them, but have instead universally responded with snark and eye rolling and ad hominem, I would not expect an answer to any of my questions here. There is an apparent inability to think with a direct, masculine, logical style by you guys.

      • eduah33 said

        I am not sure I speak for the MGTOW community here, but I have lurking on the site for well over a year now, joined pretty recently, not because they have an “avoid it all” attitude with the ladies, but because they do recognize the factual dynamics of a male/female relationship. As to their opinions as to what those dynamics imply, I think you would find a pretty wide array of different choices in dealing with women, I have personally come across a pump-and-dump guy, a ghost and a still married guy. I really do not think I makes sense to attack their opinions on what male female relationships should be like, especially when yours are not exactly mainstream either. Personally I minimize sexual encounters with women simply because if she got pregnant I do not think I would be able to live with my self if I encouraged her to get an abortion(I won’t discourage her from getting an abortion either, personally I think it’s her body and therefore her choice) at the same time if she kept the baby, it is her choice and as such she had to deal with it herself, yet I would not be able to walk away either.Besides, I think it I foolish to see 5 out of 10 people get burnt after sticking their hands in a box and then going ahead to stick yours in any way simply because you are sure it will “feels good” for a moment there. In your particular case you claim to have been burnt a couple of times your self but then you keep sticking your hand in the box trying to figure out a way to have more gain for the pain. Well It’s you, its your choice (FYI my motto). But do not dunk on others who have simply decided the gain cannot possibly be more than the pain.

      • xsplat said

        But do not dunk on others who have simply decided the gain cannot possibly be more than the pain.

        As I mentioned a few times, I’m not speaking out against the MGTOW philosophy, I’m speaking out against the comments and commentors in that particular thread. I’m speaking out against how many claim to be anti sex and asexual, and how many claim that they think it is stupid and foolish for ANYONE to fuck.

        I’m explaining to you guys that you are having a failure of imagination, and taking your small and limited and socially inept perspective and extrapolating from that too much. You project your personal experiences onto humanity as a whole. You are the inept who don’t know that you are inept, and you can’t imagine that you don’t know that you are inept.

        There are alternative ways of dealing with women where the rewards are worth the risks. It’s only your failure of imagination and your desparate need to retain self worth that blocks out that vision – that blocks out even the possibility of imagining for 1/2 of a second that possibility.

        The battle between the sexes may already be lost for many of you guys, and you may have an accurate assessment of that. But to go so far as to claim that it’s a lost battle for all men is putting a crown on ignorance itself.

        I mean Jeebus, from what I’ve read you guys are not even clued in to the most basic fundamentals of male female socio/sexual dynamics; dominance. You set yourself up to fail, and then turn that around and call the failure a lifestyle choice, and then to boost moral you find a bunch of like minded guys, and proclaim yourself wise experts.

        Ya, experts at fail.

        If I were accurately describe my relationship, I doubt a single one of you would be able to come to terms with it, to even face the facts of how I live my life head on. You’d have to squirm around and make excuses and try to twist it into something negative.

        For the last two years I’ve been living with a doting love slave. She acts as a personal assistant, full time. She’s hot and sexy, affectionate and erotic. Before her I had a series of other live ins, who were the same. Extremely doting – more so than any personal servant you could hire. Some I even would dress in hot french maid outfits. As the current one does, all the others loved me madly.

        So where is this horrible down side that you allude to?

        I love women, and they love me. We get along great. They make my heart warm and my life happy. I will always have them around me, because they find me attractive and I find them attractive, and together we are much happier than we are apart. It works out great, and it’s a great life. I’m grateful for all of it.

        Thanks girls!

  9. [...] MGTOW guys have intimacy avoidance issues [...]

  10. Gouki said

    Disagree. I’m in a relationship and I’m a bit of a MGTOW. From what I can see on that board (not a member) there are indeed other members who are in relationships too.
    One thing I can tell right off the bat is that MGTOW truly analyze all outcomes and are not like the mindless sheep who populate world powers. They avoid having to jump through hoop after hoop and you say they have intimacy avoiding issues. They break free from the social script and people have a problem with it. What about the glorified “Sex and the City, Eat Pray Love” lifestyles that women partake in? Nothing but crickets when that is presented. I understand high T levels because that is what makes us men, plain and simple. Problem is, you come off as another “high T” who basically puts their worth in relationships, love, sex…basically validation from women.

    What about Newton or Tesla who devoted their ENTIRE lives to science while basically ignoring women? Does that mean that they are any less of a man than you?

    • xsplat said

      I don’t understand why your crowd is forever framing things in terms of worth and validation.

      I don’t fuck or love in order to get validated. I fuck because I enjoy it, and I love because it feels really good.

      I’m sorry, but if everything always boils down to self esteem issues to you, then you have self esteem issues.

      Self esteem is not the motivating force for other people that you think it is.

      Most people have a normal, healthy self esteem. They feel fine about themselves, and yet they are still driven to better themselves, and to achieve their goals. Not everything is about getting “validation”. It’s also about enjoying the game. Loving and fucking are the most fun a person can have. A higher high than any drug, with as much meaning as the soul is capable of feeling. As spiritual as the being is capable of being spiritual. As hedonistic as the person is capable of experiencing pleasure.

      That your crowd can only see loving and fucking in terms of self esteem points to a seriously skewed value system and focus and emphasis. Self esteem is a very minor component of why people love and fuck.

      I just finished fucking my girl 10 minutes ago. We had the hungry passion of fresh lovers. How such an experience can be considered as something someone does for validation is beyond me. What kind of asexual mind does it take to be so stuck in their internal narrative to not be able to embody strong passions? Fucking is not about some internal dialogue revolving around some conception of self.

      I suggest you take up some body centered meditations and practices to get out of your head. That last thing anyone wants is to be stuck in some storyline while they are fucking. Embody our experience. Take up surfing and bowling. Maybe music too. It’s not ALL about that story line going on upstairs.

      • Gouki said

        “I don’t understand why your crowd is forever framing things in terms of worth and validation.”

        When I was still in the U.S, society dictated to everyone what makes them worthy, especially to men. Why do you think there are so many so called “pick up artists” around with men buying up their garbage? The main goal for a vast majority of men is sex and yes they do put their worth in whether they have a woman or not. Society reinforces it, as do you as well. Like I said before MGTOW basically found a way around it and found a different path. If it makes them personally happy and fulfilled or not will never be known by you or me..its all them.

        “Self esteem is not the motivating force for other people that you think it is.”

        Its not? Seriously? Explain why men who don’t follow the social script get bashed or why women who don’t have the “skinny model” body are made out to feel like trash. Then explain why plastic surgery is a multi billion dollar business..same with prostitution, legal that is.

        “Most people have a normal, healthy self esteem. They feel fine about themselves, and yet they are still driven to better themselves, and to achieve their goals. Not everything is about getting “validation”. It’s also about enjoying the game. Loving and fucking are the most fun a person can have. A higher high than any drug, with as much meaning as the soul is capable of feeling. As spiritual as the being is capable of being spiritual. As hedonistic as the person is capable of experiencing pleasure.”

        I agree that most do. Again, not everyone sees happiness the same way you do. Their self esteem is attacked by others for NOT following the script.

        “I just finished fucking my girl 10 minutes ago. We had the hungry passion of fresh lovers. How such an experience can be considered as something someone does for validation is beyond me. What kind of asexual mind does it take to be so stuck in their internal narrative to not be able to embody strong passions? Fucking is not about some internal dialogue revolving around some conception of self.”

        Ok. Most of us who do have women do the same thing and yet don’t brag about it online. It obvious those of us who do it with our loves, that its done for pleasure. To a lot, the act of sex is done to become validated because that is what society reinforces. You seriously can’t tell me that you never heard of males who are virgin past a certain age getting bashed. We can’t be asexual even if we tried. We are not single celled organisms so it just doesn’t work that way.

        Seems like you don’t understand MGTOW at all to be honest nor did you even try to. Start by breaking the acronym down. Men Going Their Own Way. Pretty easy to understand. We simply live how WE want despite what society dictates. Yes, some of us are in relationships while others have sworn them off. That’s all there is to it.

      • xsplat said

        Why do you upmod your own comments?

      • xsplat said

        To hear you tell it, babies would not be born were it not for men’s pathological hunger for validation from other men.

        I don’t really give much of a shit if people diss you for not even wanting to fuck. That doesn’t therefore mean that the people who do want to fuck mostly want to do that to brag to their mates.

        The self esteem issue is yours. Why project that out onto other people?

      • Gouki said

        Again, its a need to be valid to others and not just men. Women choose men who have experience over those with less or none don’t they? That’s why porn has become an issue for many.

        “The self esteem issue is yours. Why project that out onto other people?”

        I simply observe what makes others tick and yes that includes what affects their self esteem. So because I bring those to light that means I have self esteem issues myself? How you come up with correlation between the two is beyond me. That’s like saying as an EMT if you identify what is wrong with the person then you have that very same problem. See what I mean?

        “Why do you upmod your own comments?”

        Could ask you the same thing.

        Look, if you want to let your carnal desires control you then ok that’s on you. But instead of labeling all MGTOW the same thing, why not simply read up on it instead? I’m in the same boat as you practically but I don’t look at the world through rose colored glasses.

      • xsplat said

        This is getting frustrating. Am I not communicating clearly? Do I need to reword and reword again my point until you can get it and address it?

        And why would you accuse me of upmodding my own comments? I don’t do that. But you did. And your evasive reply is in keeping with your general mental habit, and is also in line with the habits I see on your board. The womanly habit if dissimulation.

        Are you or are you not saying that the reason men fuck is so that they can brag to their buddies?

        If not, then you admit that self esteem is not the prime motivation to fuck, and we agree.

        If yes, then… you’re dumb.

        And I’m not particularly interested in the MGTOW movement, so I have no motivation to read up on them. I’ve already explicitly stated at least three times now that I have not been commenting on their philosophy, but instead have been making comments about the comments and commentors on that specific thread. Should I say that another hundred times, or would that not help you to hear it? Like talking to a wall. I feel that I need to cut and paste my previous comments here, but I’m starting to wonder why I bother to reply at all.

        You guys are like a the retard wing of the bible study school. I make comments about the stupid shit you say, and you reply with “why don’t you try to understand our Bible better then?” I’m not interested in having a bible study debate with you, and I don’t much care about your bible. It’s the stupid shit you say that I have commented on. I don’t care if your general philosophy is coherent or not. It’s the idiotic shit you guys say, and how you say it, and what that says about your group that I’ve been commenting about. Is that a distinction you are capable of grasping, now that I’ve reworded the same simple concept over and over again? Or would you like to come back at me with more dissimulation and we can go around and around again and again?

        This is the internets. You guys reblog my post and make a thread about it, and I’m going to be able to see it from who’se visiting my site. If you make outstandingly stupid comments, that’s going to get commented on. Deal.

        I can’t wait to see what flavor of dissimulation you choose for your non-answer to this simple question “Are you or are you not saying that the reason men fuck is so that they can brag to their buddies?”

        Do you find that your communication style frustrates people? Because I find that the communication style of your entire group stands out as nothing I’ve ever seen before. From men. Are you guys prone to getting smacked upside the head in real life?

  11. Gouki said

    “And why would you accuse me of upmodding my own comments? I don’t do that. But you did. And your evasive reply is in keeping with your general mental habit, and is also in line with the habits I see on your board. The womanly habit if dissimulation.”

    Already said I wasn’t a member earlier so how can it be my board? You think the grass eaters who are basically the same thing are members as well? Its much bigger than that.

    “Are you or are you not saying that the reason men fuck is so that they can brag to their buddies?”

    Guess you can’t read because I already addressed it.

    “Again, its a need to be valid to others and not just men. Women choose men who have experience over those with less or none don’t they? That’s why porn has become an issue for many.”

    I mean come on, It was even in the comment right above your new one.

    “If not, then you admit that self esteem is not the prime motivation to fuck, and we agree.”

    For some it sure is. Its the reason why some women keep a few men around to reinforce that they are worth something and the reason why some guys, this is regarding younger ones, are hellbent on losing their virginity because it does indeed mess with a man if he hasn’t had sex past a certain age while most of us already had.

    “And I’m not particularly interested in the MGTOW movement, so I have no motivation to read up on them. I’ve already explicitly stated at least three times now that I have not been commenting on their philosophy, but instead have been making comments about the comments and commentors on that specific thread. Should I say that another hundred times, or would that not help you to hear it? Like talking to a wall. I feel that I need to cut and paste my previous comments here, but I’m starting to wonder why I bother to reply at all.”

    You don’t even realize that it is NOT a movement. That is why the board members are coming at you the way they are. The fact that you don’t even really grasp the mind frame and that you label us all the same despite some of our very different lifestyles makes you look ignorant.

    “You guys are like a the retard wing of the bible study school. I make comments about the stupid shit you say, and you reply with “why don’t you try to understand our Bible better then?” I’m not interested in having a bible study debate with you, and I don’t much care about your bible. It’s the stupid shit you say that I have commented on. I don’t care if your general philosophy is coherent or not. It’s the idiotic shit you guys say, and how you say it, and what that says about your group that I’ve been commenting about. Is that a distinction you are capable of grasping, now that I’ve reworded the same simple concept over and over again? Or would you like to come back at me with more dissimulation and we can go around and around again and again?”

    Again, if you don’t want to understand it then fine. However making baseless claims and putting us all in the same box makes you look ignorant which is what I have been basically saying this whole time.
    Can’t help but notice that you claim that we ignore truth and think like women A.K.A emotionally. One thing we all share are the facts and what is can go wrong. Marriage being a huge one for example. Last I checked, that is using logic and not emotion. You seem to keep acting as if I am one of those members who posted on the thread.

    “This is the internets. You guys reblog my post and make a thread about it, and I’m going to be able to see it from who’se visiting my site. If you make outstandingly stupid comments, that’s going to get commented on. Deal.”

    Already been addressed and I don’t blog either. I just look up what others say and how they feel about the philosophy and its variants.

    “I can’t wait to see what flavor of dissimulation you choose for your non-answer to this simple question “Are you or are you not saying that the reason men fuck is so that they can brag to their buddies?”

    Let me try this again.

    “Its obvious those of us who do it with our loves, that its done for pleasure.”

    “To a lot, the act of sex is done to become validated because that is what society reinforces. You seriously can’t tell me that you never heard of males who are virgin past a certain age getting bashed.”

    “Again, its a need to be valid to others and not just men. Women choose men who have experience over those with less or none don’t they?”

    I’m pretty sure that should cover your question.

    • xsplat said

      So you’re not going to give a direct answer about upmodding your own comments. Not a direct kind of guy.

      I came close to putting your comment in the spam box. It doesn’t have to be a movement for me to disagree with the comments and commentors on that thread. You see incapable of hearing what I was addressing, no matter how many times I say it.

      And your idea that people mostly fuck for self esteem issues is one of the stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard. I guess you never get horny or have any yearning for affection, and so can’t imagine any other motivation. Whatever it is, your theory of mind for other people is fucked up.

      As are most all of the comments and commentors on that thread, whethere you participate there or not, and whether you are a member of that group or not, and whethere there even is a cohesive group, or not. You all share certain traits. Fucked up traits.

      • Gouki said

        “So you’re not going to give a direct answer about upmodding your own comments. Not a direct kind of guy.”

        Because I can..and it looks like you did the same..but whatever its irrelevant now.

        “I came close to putting your comment in the spam box. It doesn’t have to be a movement for me to disagree with the comments and commentors on that thread. You see incapable of hearing what I was addressing, no matter how many times I say it.”

        I broke it down for you many times..if you want, you can spam it, its your page and you have that right. So when you disagree, you also label anyone else who may agree with them as having “intimacy avoidance issues.” Sounds like you have the “Its that way because I say so” attitude. Not your run of the mill ad hom at least.

        “And your idea that people mostly fuck for self esteem issues is one of the stupidest ideas I’ve ever heard. I guess you never get horny or have any yearning for affection, and so can’t imagine any other motivation. Whatever it is, your theory of mind for other people is fucked up.”

        You either purposely overlook the reasons why I believe people have sex or you can’t grasp it. Not to mention I never said ALL people. Read the bottom part of my last comment. I won’t bring it up any further. Take it as you will.

        “As are most all of the comments and commentors on that thread, whethere you participate there or not, and whether you are a member of that group or not, and whethere there even is a cohesive group, or not. You all share certain traits. Fucked up traits.”

        More of this “you don’t see things MY way so that makes you fucked up” nonsense. You come off as one who sees anyone that disagrees with you or has a different view of things as “fucked up.” Only thing we can seem to agree on is that some fuck for pleasure, usually couples as I mentioned before and that high T levels are important. Really no need to further this exchange. Adios.

  12. Ryan said

    Wait a minute!!!
    This author sounds like the one and only purpose of a human (read male) life is to be intimate with a woman at any cost. If u not trying to get a woman in the sack, u r a looser!! Right?
    So, to narrow it down, if a man is not having sex 24/7 or at least aspiring to he should not be considered human.
    By the way, the author doesn’t breathe a word about all the anti-male laws and the constant misandry that men face in this sick and depraved society. Oh!! Those laws are also an imagination of the MGTOW minds, right? They don’t exist.
    Did u idiot even bother to find out why these guys are advocating avoiding sex and women? Do, u even know the laws that governs ur country?
    This author is the typical snake oil salesman….BEWARE!!

  13. cher chez le homme said

    A man who has chosen to live a life not devoid of women, but simply a life where women have no power to shame him or to take anything from him does not automaticaly have intimacy issues, or low testosterone. Women are simply background characters: the bank teller, the checkout clerk. Plenty of women live this way with regard to men, and no one casts apersions on their social or sexual competence.

    While homosexuality is an inherited orientation, most people are capable of bisexual behavior. Mutual masturbation occurs more frequently than is acknowledged in situations where two guys are alone. And so what? It’s pleasurable, provides skin on skin contact, and no one has to be privy to it other than the participants. Women are empowered for same sex contact and for using vibrators, but men are villified for doing the same? A man knows what another man likes, and afterward there is no emotional complication, no false protestations of love, just a relief of the insistent urge mutually enjoyed. Who cares what anyone else would think if they knew? They don’t have to know two buds are trading five-knuckle shuffles and cuddling for a bit. It does not have to proceed to penetrative sex. Two guys can relieve a lot of frustration and loneliness for each other without turning ‘queer.’

    • xsplat said

      I agree that there many workable life strategies, and some may want to, for a time at least, try one that doesn’t include women.

      I’ve stated before and I’ll probably have to state it again many times, I’m not anti MGTOW philosophy. I’m anti the stupid shit that most MGTOW guys profess. I’m usually specific about which stupid shit I’m referring to. Lately the stupid shit I’m referring to is MGTOWs justifying their avoidance of women based on the fallacious concept of freedom and the wrong headed life strategy of asceticism.

  14. cher chez le homme said

    Why is a life strategy of asceticism wrong simply because you would not choose it at this time, Xsplat? If it works, just do it and don’t get ruffled because someone has a different opinion. It’s not wrong if it works for you. MGTOW is about making one’s own choices. Freedom is in the mind of the beholder. ‘Fallacious’ and ‘wrong headed’ sound like feminist shaming rhetoric. It’s simply not what you choose and your reasons are valid. You don’t have to justify your choices or your reasoning. Explaining your choices is one thing, labeling another’s choices negatively them is another.

    • xsplat said

      MGTOW guys proselytize for converts and habitually shame men who pursue sex (by calling them slaves to their desire, for instance), and here you are telling me to live and let live? Come on.

      If a group had it as their in-group membership criteria to walk around with their balls nailed to a piece of wood, I’d call them nuts and wrong headed, and do what I could to avoid them raising their number of converts.

      Same principle. Asceticism is wrong headed, and just plain wrong. I will not live and let live for a group trying to raise converts to living wrong.

      Life is to be enjoyed. That is a fundamental principle that I believe in, and advocate, for the betterment of all. And that’s a 2nd principle I advocate – helping others and increasing general wellbeing.

      Life can be good, and I’d like to make my own life good and help others to make their life good.

      Asceticism is directly against having a good life. Deliberately and philosophically against it. If it feels good, don’t do it, is the ascetic principle.

      And again, for the 1000th time, I’m not against MGTOW, I’m against SPECIFIC stupid things that MGTOW advocate, such as asceticism.

      • cher chez le homme said

        But why is aceticism wrong? Is it just because you hold that it is? I am not an ascetic, but I don’t care if others are, or if they proselytize asceticism, or even win converts. No one is going to remain an ascetic unless they get something out of it. If they get some sense of satisfaction out of living an ascetic life then it works for them. Why are you so invested in convincing others that asceticism is wrong? I have been accused of being an ascetic because I am not a bar slut, screwing every guy I can. Doesn’t make me happy, so I choose not to do it. I don’t care if others are bar sluts. Asceticism is against an indulgent life and in favor of a disciplined life. Hedonism is against a disciplined life and in favor of an indulgent life. Interestingly, there has never been a lasting community built on Hedonism. There have been many, many lasting communities built on Asceticism, the denial of self in the service of others. Your assertion that Asceticsm is wrong headed is simply an opinion, nothing less and nothing more. People can be ascetic when it comes to relations with the opposite sex, and indulgent when it comes to video games. It’s whatever works for them. And people have the right to change their minds whenever they want. Some people choose minimal engagement with the world. Does that make them ascetic? Who cares? It’s their life. I engage life through my Toastmasters clubs, my choirs, and my weaving. It’s what makes me happy. Is that asceticism? Who cares? No one should but me, but I have no lack of people telling me how I should live my life. (You should go out more. You should find someone to date. You should spend less time weaving. You should travel more.) Yeah, whatever. I found peace of mind when I stopped being invested in what others believe and do. May it be so for you as well.

      • xsplat said

        Why is causing pain to others wrong? If it works for people, then let them do it! Who am I to judge?

        Do you follow the logic so far? Am I able to lead your mind down the logical connections here? You get it that pain is not a good thing, right? That no one wants to suffer? With me so far?

        People universally enjoy enjoyment. People universally prefer pleasure over pain. With me so far? Or do you contest that pleasure is pleasurable?

        There are people in this world who don’t want other people to enjoy pleasure. They are therefore harming others. Reducing another individuals pleasure is causing harm.

        Causing harm to others willfully is bad. I’m trying to stop others from causing harm to others.

        Pleasure is good, pain is bad. That is our subjective experience.

        If someone wants to cause himself pain and deprive himself, that’s one thing. But many MGTOW guys proselitize avoiding specific unsanctioned pleasures, and shame those who do not avoid such pleasures. They actively work to reduce the amount of pleasure in this world. That is causing harm.

        And I’m going to repeat it one more time, as I know many MGTOWers are constitutionally unable to argue on points, but instead argue by eye rolling and dissimulation. I’m not saying that avoiding women is wrong. I’m saying that advocating asceticism for it’s own reward is wrong, and harmful, and is an attempt to diminish the amount of joy and pleasure and happiness and life fulfillment in this world.

        A big fat MGTOW pity party, is what some man boobs want.

        *********
        There are prudes in positions of authority who preach and teach to the impressionable young that sex is impure, bad, and dirty. Some of them perform clitorectomies or otherwise physically prevent masturbation of those in their charge. Read up on Dr. Kellog of Kellogs Corn Flakes fame if you want to be spend your afternoon being horrified.

        That is wrong. That is bad. That is causing harm.

        Don’t try to feed me your wishy washy moral relativism where everything is all good. Leading others to view pleasure as a negative is a harm.

        A good, conversely, would be teaching tantric sex; teaching to heighten pleasure as a sustainable and all around healthy art form.

      • cher chez le homme said

        I think you are entitled to your opinions. How many men do you think are actually persuaded to foreswear all sexual pleasure, for the rest of their lives? There is such a thing as sexual addiction. If a man has managed to remove himself from the ranks of those who are led around by their dicks and can actually sustain bloodflow above the waistline, good for him. There are adult men proseletyzing and shaming their peers to stop masturbating completely. I have to wonder why. One of nature’s simplest joys and greatest pleasures a man can experience without cost, obligation or negative consequence, the most egalitarian way to have access to sexual relief, with the added benefits of relieving insomnia, anxiety, boredom. But in a reframing of childhood guilt/religious shaming some men find pride in remaining ‘masters of their domain’. Whatever. If a man is capable of being convinced to stop enjoying his dick and suppressing his natural functions of erection and orgasm, then I say “Go for it buddy. And when you fall off the wagon, I’ll be there to lend a helping hand.”
        Gandhi said celibacy sent the sexual fluids up the spinal cord where they awakened the individual into higher levels of consciousness. I have experiernced this in my meditation practice more than once. But it is temporary, lasting 60 to 90 days.

        There are cultures around the world where pre-adolescent boys are instructed in homosexuality to gratify their sexual urges until they marry. Swallowing semen is deemed essential for developing into a man. In some cultures adult men masturbate together/ each other for their entire adult lives. Without birth control, women who have borne all the offspring they want welcome this practice. Even some Athiests who do not believe in eternal punishment find such practices repugnant and reprehensible, regardless of how pleasurable the participants find them, out of some ethos that worships reproduction.Some are terrified that the acceptance of sex between men will lower the birthrate. I think it more likely that as more men become MGTOW they will be open to the possibility of sharing/exploring sex with another man. It is no different than using birth control with a woman in the final result, is it?

        As for Tantric sex, that takes the ability to learn to delay gratification, to experience subtlties and nuances of pleasure. Bruce Grether has produced a three part series for men on Mindful Masturbation.

        Have you looked at the number of sites on the net devoted to male masturbation? It’s a pretty large number. Some of the participants talk about higher states of consciousness achieved through self and mutual pleasuring. Some people find this utterly disgusting repulsive and repugnant. No one is insisting they participate. Some peope think that the sperm of the strongest and most intelligent males should be harvested, against their will if necessary, and used to breed superior people. Fortunately, those are an infinitesimal minority, at least for now. If the world the feminists have created continues to crumble……

        The example of Dr. Kellog is a straw man, because it uses the ignorance of a previous era perpetrated against children to protect consenting adults from their own choices. Drs. who washed their hands were once drummed out of the medical profession, while the people most affected, pregnant women about to deliver, were not given the facts and left to make their own decisions about whether or not their Dr should wash his hands. Adult men who choose to forego all the pleasures of sex, including those by self-administration deserve their suffering. But what if they don’t see it as suffering? What if they see it as mastering their lust and derive more pleasure from that than from rubbing one (or six) out each day?

        I just don’t care. If a guy wants to spend his time effort and money pursuing sex with women, fine. If he wants to rub one out when the urge strikes, great, with or without porn. If a man wants to explore the possibilities of sex with another frustrated horny male, then wonderful. He may decide it’s not for him, or he might become an enthusiastic convert (it happens) If a guy wants to forego all sexual pleasure for however long, then fine. We would all be better off if we could stop shaming each other for our own adult choices. (No animal or child abuse, and everyone who plays has to be compos mentos)

  15. Daxisle said

    Alright, this will be fun.

    So from what I’m seeing in your comments is that you want to “help MGTOWs see that love and intimacy is a good thing”, but then you turn around and insult us, calling us “inept”, defeatists, socially retarded, “ugly guys with man tits” and so on. One of the basics in MGTOW is the hatred of the constant shaming men go through for not conforming to another persons belief on how our interaction with society should be.

    In essence, congratulations, you’ve failed in doing what you claimed you wish to accomplish.

    And then you claim you’re not attacking the MGTOW philosophy, just the commentators who go after others and demonize them for marriage and sex. While there aren’t many core principals in MGTOW, avoiding serious relationships with the western woman (and SOME women in general) is one of them. You then go on to profess your opinions on these individuals and how they are “hurting others” and “causing pain”. This is hardly true, and is only true for those with thin skin who really shouldn’t be on the internet in the first place.

    Words are only given power by the person reading them, if they are hurt from the words of people who they’ve never met before over a medium on which can give almost complete anonymity, that person needs some serious help. If it’s from a friend and the friend cannot get over the fact that his associate is getting married or having sex, then the man must be adult enough to end the friendship and move on with his life. (There are some weird anti-sex zelots out there, I prefer not to have sex but to each their own.)

    As far as your “intimacy and enjoyment” of women”: If you like it, good for you. I personally derive no pleasure from women, however. 95% of my interactions with them have included: Complaining about something, wanting help with something, or asking me why I’m not looking for a relationship. The way I look at it, what’s the point of a relationship? Oh, let me guess “You see! That proves my point! You can’t even see the good things in intimacy!”

    Look boss, I’ll be frank here; I don’t see them because they don’t exist *anymore*. I’ve never seen a woman be “supporting” or “nurturing” to a man. This in both my HS years and after, none in the relationships I’ve been in either. Actually it was a bunch of drama for most of them. Constantly having to reassure them, doing things for them that they could do for themselves and being shamed whenever I told them to do it themselves. “Be a man” came up a lot and the first time I shot back, the brawd started to cry. Cry like a little freaking child because I’d been pushed to my mental limit with her crap. And what happened the next day? Rumor spread that I was “verbally abusing her”, a damage to my reputation that were both positive and negative. Then it made me stop and think, what was the point of me going out with her anyway? I wasn’t happy, it didn’t make me feel enriched in anyway (both can be said for my other relationships) and the only reason I did date was because a friend -much like the author of this artical- went on and on about the merits of a relationship.

    And sex? My hand can do a better job with 10x more pleasure and 15x more efficiency. Every sexual experience I’ve had literally bored me into counting the speckles on the ceiling. All the while I’d have to keep up the appearance of “enjoying” myself so not to hurt the chicks feelings. Oh yes, the thought of the act gets my blood pumping, but the act itself is one of the most tedious things in this world. At first, a few of them liked it, they saw it as a challenge but we’d both wear ourselves out after half an hour and call it quits. So I’d always finish myself off anyway, why bother wasting 30 minutes for that?

    I’m not going to lie, I’m not a confident guy nor have I ever really been. Even in football and wrestling I approached everything with more caution and doubt about my abilities. You go on about how many MGTOWs are just bitter guys who can’t get laid and aren’t confident in themselves. My question to you is, so what? So what if they are? I’m sure your chastising and aspersions has done wonders for them. What? Because a guy is socially differed suddenly he can’t go his own way?

    And no, I do believe there are good women out there, only about 2-3% though. Pick the wrong one and you’ll pay for it, often times more dearly than others, especially in this day and age.

    Many MGTOW do avoid intimacy, that much is true (Well, how man times do you need to burn yourself before you figure out you shouldn’t touch a potentially hot stove?). And some of us do avoid or limit our time spend around females (Nothing to really gain). If you’re a PUA, I don’t understand why you’d call that into question; less competition in the pool for you. If you’re a traditionalist, same thing; people are grown ups, they will make their own decisions. If a man is a man, they wont let other men curb that decision through shaming, much like this article tries to do.

    I’ll end it with this: To the author, what exactly is it you wish to accomplish? I’ve read your article and many of your comments and gain nothing from them save for a great deal of shaming and trying to “correct peoples views” on subjective areas. You’ve droned on about how sex is in human nature (Something humans go against on a daily basis, including yourself I’m sure) I have yet to hear about the merits of these relationships you’re advocating. Teach me something.

  16. Johnnybgoode said

    Wasn’t it women who (decades ago) first said “a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle?”

    Women have been “going their own way” for decades now in many ways, such as having children out of wedlock, not allowing fathers to have any relationship with their kids except as an ATM, having women only colleges (while taking male only colleges to court for sex discrimination), and many other male-excluding practices.

    Some men have evaluated their life experiences with and without women arrived at the conclusion that they are happier, better off and much freer to pursue their own heartfelt passions and interests without women. The sex role demands placed on men in relationships with women (and often enforced by a biased legal system) have always been onerous, often dangerous, and can preclude any possibility of self-actualization and personal fulfillment.

    A woman has so much freedom she can end a life by aborting her own child. By comparison, what’s the big deal about some men analyzing their experiences and making individual choices about how they want to live their lives? I guess in this day and age, freedom only becomes a problem if it is men who are seeking it.

    • xsplat said

      Regardless of how air tight and appropriate and well considered are the arguments for men going their own way, the things that I am saying in these and related posts are valid and true.

      What’s the big deal about men making personal choices to go their own way? If you think that I’m arguing against men doing that then it appears that you have not paid much attention to what I’m actually saying.

      It’s normal for a group to self-identify and then get touchy about any criticism. That’s fine to be touchy, but at least don’t defend against straw-men attacks that were never made. If you want to argue against things I said then bring up the things I said and argue against them.

  17. GHOUL said

    ” I love going on day long motorcycle rides with friends, followed by dinner and great conversation until the wee hours of the morning. You see, I experience “normal human emotions and psychological requirements” too.

    Lack of sex has nothing to do with lack or avoidance of intimacy. My most fulfilling roles in life and relationships have nothing to do with my libido.”

    here in brazil the things are diferents. zeta man here, like me, cannot have friends and social life. the alphas and betas, women etc do bullyijng against zetas if they have social life, friends etc. here i am enemy of the alphas and betas

    so, to me, zeta male is pure misanthropy. is total hatred against humannity, and social isolation, and extreme egoism

    sorry bad english

  18. Michael Hill said

    Become Happier By Avoiding Sex, Marriage, Fatherhood, And Parental Alienation Syndrome.

    [Introduction]

    My information is a combination of three stories. The first story describes one of the most important books that I have ever read (Adult Children of Parental Alienation Syndrome by Amy Baker). The second story uses information from online articles to reveal events that are enormously influenced by family problems (like Parental Alienation Syndrome). Parental Alienation Syndrome is probably the worst family problem because it can last for decades after the relationship with the spouse or the lover has ended. The other family problems can be eliminated when the couples divorce or when the unmarried couples separate. The third story explains why parental alienation methods were used against me by an unexpected group of people.

    [Book Summary]

    Forty adult participants were interviewed for Adult Children of Parental Alienation Syndrome (by Amy Baker). The book has a lot of long and informative quotes from those interviews. During childhood, each of the 40 adult participants had an alienating parent (usually the mother) that manipulated them into unjustly hating (or pretending to hate) the targeted parent. Many participants said that they were frequently forced to make hateful or belittling comments to the targeted parent even though they secretly loved the targeted parent. The book gives a detailed explanation of each method the alienating parent used to manipulate or brainwash their children. The United States would become a better country if every targeted parent made their children read and talk to them about this book.

    [Married Life With Children]

    Many alienating parents manipulated their children into hating the targeted parent even though the married couple lived in the same home. The targeted parents are usually unaware of this hatred because the alienating parents and their children decide to keep their hatred a secret as long as the targeted parents (usually the father) stay in the marriage. One child secretly wanted his father to die. The targeted parent thought that his spouse and child were at home in another part of town, but the child was watching him (probably through a window) because the alienating parent told her son to secretly spy on his father. As an adult, the child finally told his father about the childhood spying, the secret hatred, and the other secrets.

    In some marriages, the alienating parent made hateful or belittling comments to the targeted parent. In some of the openly hostile marriages, the children also made hateful or belittling comments to the targeted parent. During the marriage, children saw the alienating parent abuse the targeted parent (verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, or a combination of abuses). The author believes that many of the alienating parents had a personality disorder like narcissism (other disorders were named in the book). Family problems (including Parental Alienation Syndrome) affected the children. “Nearly half of college-age adults [19-25 year old students and non-students] struggle with a mental health disorder, from alcohol dependency to depression and anxiety. But only a quarter seek” treatment (“Young Adults Hit By Mental Health Issues,” BaltimoreSun.com).

    One reason marriage rates are decreasing is because more people are witnessing the divorces and the unhappy marriages of numerous family and friends. People that were older than 20 and had divorced parents were 33 percent less likely to ever get married (“Research Suggests Children Of Divorce More Likely To End Their Own Marriages,” UNews.Utah.edu). The percentage of people older than 18 that were currently married was 72 percent in 1960 and 51 percent in 2010 (“Marriage Rate In America Drops Drastically,” HuffingtonPost.com). “According to U.S. Census Bureau statistics, in 1980 only 6 percent of men between 40 and 44 had never been married; in 2008 it was 16 percent (“The Stigma Of The Never-Married Man,” Details.com).” Fifty-six percent (56%) of all men and 65 percent of men with bachelor degrees remained in their first marriage for at least 20 years (“Only Half Of First Marriages Last 20 Years,” Today.com). “Two-thirds of all divorces are initiated by women (“Debunking 10 Divorce Myths,” Health.HowStuffWorks.com).”

    [Child Support And Child Visitation]

    Fifty percent (50%) of the children born to married parents will see their parents divorce before they reach the age of 18 (“Statistics on Children of Divorce in America,” About.com). Custodial parents (usually the mother) can ignore child visitation orders because there is usually no punishment (“Visitation Rights Must Be Enforced,” Cleveland.com). One father was divorced, he had child visitation problems after the divorce, and he remarried the alienating parent because he wanted adequate contact with his child. Some mothers will ask the family court for an increase in child support payments if the father’s income increases significantly. A few websites like LegalZoom.com answer the question: “Can I go after my ex-husband’s new wife’s income for more child support?” The answer is that in “limited circumstances” the ex-wife would get an increase in child support payments.

    “Our [1997] data show that 4.5 million [56% of non-poor] nonresident fathers who do not pay child support have no apparent financial reason to avoid this responsibility. None of these fathers are poor (“Poor Dads Who Don’t Pay Child Support,” Urban.org).” In 2008, nearly 25 percent of parents did not pay any court-ordered child support, and another 30 percent did not pay the full amount (“Most Child-Support Payers Stiff Their Kids,” CBSNews.com). Twenty-four percent (24%) of custodial mothers did not receive any court-ordered child support from fathers, and thirty-seven percent (37%) of custodial fathers did not receive any court-ordered child support from mothers (“Child Support for Custodial Mothers and Fathers: 1991,” page 6, Census.gov).

    The primary reason for child support delinquency is child visitation problems. Another reason is a “vindictive or unjust” divorce process (“The Family; Why Fathers Don’t Pay Child Support,” NYTimes.com). “Men Who Broke” (FathersForLife.org) has many stories of men that committed suicide because of enormous child support arrears or child visitation problems. Some fathers that are victims of Parental Alienation Syndrome pay the full amount of court-ordered child support, and some fathers that were treated well by their families do not pay the full amount of court-ordered child support. Father’s family court problems were explained extremely well in A Promise to Ourselves by Alec Baldwin (book) and Divorce Corp by Joseph Sorge (book and DVD).

    When the children became adults that no longer lived with either parent, many alienating parents (usually the mother) would continue to prevent their children from establishing a relationship with the targeted parent. Many adult alienated children eventually had a positive relationship with the targeted parent. Many children will be permanently alienated from their fathers. Single divorced men with permanently alienated children and never-married men that never had children will be in a SIMILAR situation in their old age.

    [Old Age]

    “In-Home Care For Frail Childless Adults” (Urban.org) reveals the percentage of frail older men (age 65 and older) living in the community that receive in-home care from paid help and unpaid help (family and friends). The information excludes men living in nursing homes and assisted living facilities. Frail unmarried older men with no children received help 50.4 percent of the time (37.9% unpaid help and 20.3% paid help). Frail older men (both married and unmarried) with two children received help 59.8 percent of the time (58.4% unpaid help and 9.3% paid help).

    Nursing homes and assisted living facilities are alternatives to in-home care. “Ohio nursing home and assisted living facility residents rated their overall satisfaction with the care they receive in the ‘B+’ range, according to a statewide survey by the Ohio Department of Aging (“Ohio Nursing Home Residents Rate Facilities Well In State Survey,” Cleveland.com). During old age, the entire Social Security payment of some fathers is confiscated by the government to pay child support (current and past-due). It does not matter if the child is an adult, if the debt was created decades ago, or if the father does not have another source of income (“Child Support vs. Social Security,” BankRate.com).

    [Share The Wealth]

    The emotional harassment that I experienced from an unexpected group of people (since 2001) is very similar to the parental alienation methods described in this book. Before I joined the Navy, I almost always worked minimum wage jobs (mostly in Atlanta, GA). My female Navy enlisted recruiter encouraged me to become a Navy Officer because she saw that I had a bachelor’s degree. I was too old to qualify for most officer job categories as a civilian. The age limits were higher for Navy enlisted personnel. I was interested in the officer program during my first several months of active duty, but I decided not to apply. For ten years (2001-2011), I was a Navy enlisted sailor on active duty in San Diego (CA). My significantly improved financial status caused women and society to change from not caring about my personal life to using emotional harassment to demand that I get a girlfriend and become a father.

    I live alone, I have never been married, and I do not have any children. I used to have sex with women before I began practicing sexual abstinence. “Effectiveness Of Family Planning Methods” (CDC.gov) and “Contraception” (CDC.gov) reveal that the “typical use failure rate” for condoms is 18 pregnancies per 100 women per year (18 percent). Some single condom users want to wear two condoms at the same time. A few women that want to get pregnant will lie and say that male contraceptives are not needed because they are sterile or because they are using female contraceptives. I am happy practicing sexual abstinence and avoiding having a girlfriend because both plans allow me to avoid marriage and fatherhood. The percentage of women at the end of their childbearing years (the 40-44 age group) that have never given birth was 10 percent in 1976 and 18 percent in 2008 (“Childlessness Up Among All Women,” PewSocialTrends.org).

    For the first time in my life (starting in 2001, when I was 32 years old), there was an extreme and coordinated effort to emotionally harass me at work and near my home. The emotional harassment continued after I moved from Atlanta (GA) to San Diego (CA). When I was near my home, strangers that I saw only once would either emotionally harass me or spy on me (child spying is described in my third paragraph). A hacker could spy on my laptop or smartphone (“WiFi Snooping: Who’s Spying On Your Laptop?,” KMOV.com). Company employees can view customer information like my online email account, my bank account, and my brokerage account (“Employees Snoop On Customer Data,” ABCNews.Go.com). My harassers often have information (negative and positive) that I did not reveal to anyone.

    [Doctor’s Visit]

    I was VERY ANGRY at the beginning of the emotional harassment (in 2001), but I got used to it. In 2010, my Commanding Officer (O-6 rank) forced me to see a psychiatrist even though I felt fine. I learned that the Navy does not need a very good reason to make a service member see a psychiatrist. I took a psychological test, and I talked to the psychiatrist. At the beginning of the session, I put a tape recorder on the table. I told the psychiatrist that I will record the entire session. I did not tell her that if I received an unfair diagnosis, then I would have used the tapes to get a second opinion from a psychiatrist that I would have hired. One year after I left the Navy, I destroyed the tapes. The psychiatrist decided that I should live at a Navy mental hospital for three days for observation. The Navy mental hospital told me that I did not have any mental disorders.

    The psychiatrist said that information from my session would be revealed to my high-level supervisors (E-9 rank and above). Even if I was not warned, I would not have told the psychiatrist anything that I did not want the entire world to know. The harassers at my new job location and near my home knew specific things that I told the psychiatrist. The harassers were unable to get any damaging information. Before my 2005 re-enlistment, I knew that I would leave the Navy in 2011 (Honorable Discharge as an E-5). The emotional harassment will last for the rest of my life because I will not become an ATM machine (paying child support for my alienated children that I am rarely allowed to contact). “’In the 1950s, if you weren’t married, people thought you were mentally ill,’ said Andrew J. Cherlin, a Johns Hopkins University sociologist who studies families (“Married Couples At A Record Low,” WashingtonPost.com).”

    [The Boycott]

    The emotional harassment increased my desire to do research on marriage and fatherhood. The more research I did, the worse marriage and fatherhood looked. Marriage and fatherhood is much worse than the emotional harassment that I frequently deal with. I am used to the emotional harassment. The only major problem that I have is unemployment. Avoiding sex, marriage, and fatherhood means that I solved my future problems with family court and the unfair fatherhood laws BEFORE it was too late. If a large percentage of men boycotted family court and the unfair fatherhood laws for their entire life, then society would eventually be FORCED to create a better system. MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) in the United States and Herbivore Men in Japan are large groups of men that are avoiding sex, marriage, fatherhood, and Parental Alienation Syndrome.

    A Promise to Ourselves by Alec Baldwin (book) and Divorce Corp by Joseph Sorge (book and DVD) exposes a broken family court system that frequently does not care about “the best interests of the child.” Any solution to family court and the unfair fatherhood laws should have the goal of preventing unfair changes to the improved system after the children are born. One possible solution would be to pass laws that create “parental contracts” (similar to prenuptial agreements) that cover child custody, child visitation, and child support payments. The “parental contract” could require both parents to allow yearly “parental alienation awareness training” for their children.

    The “parental contract” laws would reduce the number of unfair negotiated contracts. The law would have mandatory minimum child support payments. The “parental contracts” would allow both parents to avoid paying child support if both parents have an equal amount of child custody. If the custodial parent refused a non-custodial parent’s child visitation, then there could be a two-part punishment in the “parental contract” (a “flow reversal” punishment). In the first part, the permanent non-custodial parent would get temporary custody of the children for at least one month. In the second part, the direction of the child support payments would reverse during the temporary custody period. The permanent custodial parent would have to pay child support. A fair system would mean that fewer non-custodial parents would have child support arrears. Allegations of child abuse would have to be proven in a CRIMINAL court. A conviction would authorize the criminal court (not the family court) to punish the defendant by canceling or by modifying their “parental contract.” Parents (married and unmarried) without a “parental contract” would be in another system. [Written by Michael Anthony Hill in Miami, FL (07-01-14)]

  19. Nice blog! Is your theme custom made or did you download it from somewhere?

    A theme like yours with a few simple tweeks would really make my blog shine.

    Please let me know where you got your design. Thanks

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